With the priority queue, I've noticed recently that it may be a long time between procs for rime and killing machine. While KM + FS is up near the top of the list, I'm curious how long it's generally suggested to hold a rime proc, hoping for the KM proc? It seems not-uncommon for rime to refresh/overwrite itself (and the same with KM) - does the math suggest a rough period of time it should be held before consuming it? I would assume that too many overwrites would be a net loss (also assuming that two HB casts has the potential for higher damage than a single guaranteed-crit cast), I just don't recall seeing this mentioned/discussed in the various threads - or if the various sims/models take it into account.
It's advised to use your Rime proc without KM when:
1. You don't have enough RP to dump FS while you have your runes on cooldown (obviously), even then you should wait until the very last moment to use it before getting your runes active hoping for a KM proc.
2. If you're low on RP (if I remember correctly, below 40-50 or so) just before your runes come off cooldown.
In case 2 using your Rime proc when quite low on RP just before runes come off cooldown is advised, because Rime might proc from the Obliterate(s) you're about to use with those runes and because if you use your Rime sitting at low RP instead of FS you will save runic power for your next dump sequence. If you had used a FS instead of that Rime, you would've ran out of RP while dumping the next time unless you had another Rime proc from an Obliterate.
So use Rime if KM procs or keep it till the end of your dump sequence and use it if you're low on RP just before runes come off cooldown. The situation where you would let your Rime rot, would be a situation where you don't get a KM proc and you are filled with RP, having more than enough to pull off the Frost Strikes instead. You shouldn't hold a KM proc for a Rime while dumping, since you want to avoid empty GCD's, which are a great loss of DPS.
That's how it used to be and it should still work like that. This was discussed in the old thread.
Edit: Oh, I didn't know that nowadays KM+FS is prioritised over anything except KM+HB, either way, that shouldn't affect anything I said just now.
Testing will yield the best results as to which trinket is the best, but I'd like to develop some numerical value that rates each trinket. I'm not sure I'm going about this in the right way, but the formula for the value is very simple.
DPSfromstats + (duration/internalcd*procdps) - thanks suicuique for the correction to the formula
As mentioned, this system is largely inaccurate because it doesn't take everything into account, but I'd say it's a reasonable comparison between the trinkets. Please correct any mistakes and I will edit the post. If I missed a trinket, let me know too.
Last edited by Naerys : 12/15/09 at 3:37 PM.
Reason: formula change, ordered trinkets by score
I'm slightly confused as to why this would be applicable to a DPS DK. Rune Strike triggers everytime the DK parries or dodges, but if a DK DPS is doing their job correctly, they should never be in front of the boss, nor have the attention of the boss. Rune Strike generates a lot of threat too, so also not a great reason to use it with every ability. All of the tanking discussion I've seen talks about using this exact macro; all of your spells and attacks with rune strike plastered on the end for threat generating, etc.
It's quite possible that I'm missing something, but I wanted to attempt to clarify for myself, and for future readers who may get confused, whether that macro is actually beneficial for DPSing or if it is misplaced, perhaps in a copy paste or some such.
Like Darkside said, you will end up parring and dodging on a few boss encounters (also faction champions) and RS is the best use of RP. While RS makes a lot of threat, one or two isn't going to cause much of an issue. Also, dps DKs just don't play raids; when you will do a daily quest, a 5-man where you get a loose mob, or in PvP RS is a great dps increase.
Putting /cast !rune strike on all your strikes in macros is very useful.
Will has three procs, 600 Strength, Crit, or Haste for 30 seconds with a 105s cooldown along with a 50% proc rate on melee hit.
Needle is 10% chance on a melee crit to proc, 45 or 50 second cooldown.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Like Darkside said, you will end up parring and dodging on a few boss encounters (also faction champions) and RS is the best use of RP. While RS makes a lot of threat, one or two isn't going to cause much of an issue. Also, dps DKs just don't play raids; when you will do a daily quest, a 5-man where you get a loose mob, or in PvP RS is a great dps increase.
Putting /cast !rune strike on all your strikes in macros is very useful.
Will has three procs, 600 Strength, Crit, or Haste for 30 seconds with a 105s cooldown along with a 50% proc rate on melee hit.
Needle is 10% chance on a melee crit to proc, 45 or 50 second cooldown.
105s cooldown? I assume that these procs can't happen simultaneously or is that a possibility? Regardless, I'm not quite sure how to model three procs or procs in general for overall dps. I'm going to update my previous post and get some DPS numbers for the procs.
Since you can't have more than one DbW, our BiS trinkets will probably be the 258 and 277. There's a chance that it could be 2x DC, but I haven't done enough math on that yet and it will probably vary from person to person, depending on individual gear levels.
I've updated my original post with Death's Choice and assigned values based on proc rate to each trinket that I evaluated. As mentioned, it seems that Death's Choice and DbW are BiS, netting the highest rating from my formula. It looks as if Needle is an excellent pick me up trinket for someone who's missed out on some raiding or is just getting into raiding.
2 DC is a definite possibility, since you'll always get the same proc, whereas with DbW it can change, you could get a stream of Haste procs which won't put out the same amount of dps as if you got the crit or the str procs. I'm lost on how to model the total outcome for DbW as 1 number, or how to fairly tell if it is better than DC, but I'd leave it up to the individual based on gear, etc.
As an afterthought, [Mark of Supremacy] is a decent choice if you aren't hit capped, but can certainly be traded out once the hit is covered in a different area. Some quick math yields that below the hit cap, MoS gives
450.56 + (20/120*1024) = 621
It doesn't stack up to DC or DbW after hit cap of course.
Last edited by Naerys : 12/15/09 at 3:40 PM.
Reason: math fix
Whenever I've used BT (without a /stopcasting macro) with all runes on cooldown (BBUUFF coming active) and used UA, I've got DBUUFF runes. That's fine, it would've normally been BBUUFF anyway so there's no big deal with one of the runes being a death rune, BUT after I've used and ability with the death rune that should make it come active as a death rune (BS, Pest) it comes back down as a blood rune, giving me BDUUFF runes (isn't this a bug btw?). That's basically trading an OB for BSx2 and 10% strength for 20sec and messing up your rotation because you don't use /stopcasting after BT.
Or are you trying to say that you're using BT+UA with the blood runes active at the moment? If that fixes the problem and is how you do it, you lose a BS when you would not need to if you just used the /stopcasting macro and used BT immediately after using both of your death runes.
If I mistook your post somehow feel free to correct me.
No problem man. The way I do it is when I start a fight, it goes something like this: IT-PS-OB-BS, now at this point as soon as I get done hitting that first BS, I would quickly hit BT and UA in succession, then I still somehow get another BS. Keep in mind that I I'm doing this BT-UA while BS is still on GCD, so I don't mess with timing. That's how I've been doing it this whole time, but maybe I'll try making a cancel aura macro because that might actually make it easier, will just take some getting used to.
No problem man. The way I do it is when I start a fight, it goes something like this: IT-PS-OB-BS, now at this point as soon as I get done hitting that first BS, I would quickly hit BT and UA in succession, then I still somehow get another BS. Keep in mind that I I'm doing this BT-UA while BS is still on GCD, so I don't mess with timing. That's how I've been doing it this whole time, but maybe I'll try making a cancel aura macro because that might actually make it easier, will just take some getting used to.
I just noticed I was talking about /stopcasting all that time even though I meant /cancelaura, must have been tired.
So are you converting an active blood rune or a death rune/blood rune on cooldown into a death rune with BT by doing that? I can't test it myself where I am at the moment.
Before finding out about that cancelaura macro I dropped UA, since it was extremely hard to use correctly. I didn't discover your way of doing it before in 3.2 either and even now without testing I don't understand how it works yet. The only case I found out when the situation I described didn't happen without cancelaura was when I used BT-UA-ERW with dduuff runes on cooldown.
I've updated my original post with Death's Choice and assigned values based on proc rate to each trinket that I evaluated.
You made quite a few mistakes though in your assessment. The most grave one being considering the proc chance but not the ICD. The last being the deciding factor, but not the former one.
You wrote:
Death's Choice:
256 + (.5*1206) = 859 (unsure on proc rate, correct me if I'm wrong)
Let's forget about the stat weights for one and assume you have the correct DPS weights for the individual procs/equip effects. Furthermore lets assume the procs refresh soon after the internal cool down is over (with a proc chance > 35% this is a feasible assumption in my opinion).
All this is still not a correct assesment. You have to take into account the granularity of procs, proc probability, proc prerequisite, hard caps and ramp up time (war token). But it is still miles better than your first guesses.
Uptime and proc value are the deciding factor of these proc trinkets, not proc chance.
Last edited by suicuique : 12/15/09 at 8:58 AM.
Reason: death's choice heroic added
What about Victor's call? Or is it just too far behind the others at this point? i currently use it when I spec frost Dw 'cause my expertise is a bit low without and I don't have Death's Choice. Looking at it though, maybe I should indeed pickup that Needle..
Hit
32.8 rating gives you 1% hit, therefore you will require 263 hit rating (164 with Nerves of Cold Steel) or 8%, to be hit capped on special attacks. This means, contrary to what some might think DW builds actually require less hit to cap their special attacks than our two handed brothers. Special attacks include: Blood Strike, Plague Strike, Frost strike, Obliterate. (and others that we don't care about as DW)
Hello,
Forgive me if this may sound stupid of me but I want to ask about the hit cap for DW Frost and have it clarified for me as I am a bit confused on something. Do we need to attain 5% with all gear/trinkets to be used before Nerves and then let nerves add the 3% to bring us to the 8% cap? Or would it be 164 in totality with nerves/gear/trinks to pur me at 8% Am I reading this correctly?
I am currently at 200 hit with expertise at 27 due to gear upgrades as of late. Do I need more hit? My sustained DPS in raid right now will fluctuate anywhere from 5 to 9k depending on the fight and possible boss or instance buffs. I am wondering if I am gimping myself on DPS due to my hit. Can someone please clarify for me, thanks in advance and as always EJ keep up the good work
I just noticed I was talking about /stopcasting all that time even though I meant /cancelaura, must have been tired.
So are you converting an active blood rune or a death rune/blood rune on cooldown into a death rune with BT by doing that? I can't test it myself where I am at the moment.
Before finding out about that cancelaura macro I dropped UA, since it was extremely hard to use correctly. I didn't discover your way of doing it before in 3.2 either and even now without testing I don't understand how it works yet. The only case I found out when the situation I described didn't happen without cancelaura was when I used BT-UA-ERW with dduuff runes on cooldown.
Once again, no problem I'll help you understand, I'll try to be more clear. Now like normal you will start off with an IT, then PS, then OB. Now you've got BBffuu. Throw up a Blood Strike. As soon as I hit that first BS, I will immediately hit BT and UA in succession, which to my understanding converts that first BS blood rune into a death rune, because I am always able to get a second BS or in the case of 3.2.2 with GoDis, a Pestilence off right after that, which would leave me with 2 death runes. And even if you don't time just right, then you won't get a second BS, but you'll still have 2 death runes, and honestly BS isn't a huge part of our damage anyway, so I wouldn't be too worried about it. Now you're next part of course is 3xOB, then some RP dumpage. Now you'll have DBFFUU when you start again, but when you start with IT-PS-OB, either right after or before you get that first BS off, that death rune will have converted back into a Blood rune, it times itself so perfectly with your rotation. Now I haven't tried using it with a cancelaura macro after my 3xOB, but I'm willing to try it to see if it's easier, but this is what I've been doing, and it has worked out for swell for me. Hope this helps.
All this is still not a correct assesment. You have to take into account the granularity of procs, proc probability, proc prerequisite, hard caps and ramp up time (war token). But it is still miles better than your first guesses.
Uptime and proc value are the deciding factor of these proc trinkets, not proc chance.
Thank you for the corrections, this is really the first time I've attempted any sort of gear evaluation, so I suppose mistakes might be expected. By the way you've done the calculations here we get essentially the same output, but you're correct in that it is slightly more accurate. I'll update my original post along with the additions people have requested.
So just so i understand something here, its theonly thing im not sure of as far as the rotation goes
IF i get a rime proc, but i have plenty of RP and runes to keep me going for the entirey of rime's duration, unless i get KM proc i just let it fall off?
if i get KM proc i use HB immediately over all else, but if i get no KM procs and i always have enough RP to FS or Oblit, i should just let rime fall off correct?
Assuming single target mobs.
and should i be waiting to use death and decay over Oblit after the first rune rotation? (i IT/PS/Pest/HB/BB in that order for first rotation)
So just so i understand something here, its theonly thing im not sure of as far as the rotation goes
IF i get a rime proc, but i have plenty of RP and runes to keep me going for the entirey of rime's duration, unless i get KM proc i just let it fall off?
if i get KM proc i use HB immediately over all else, but if i get no KM procs and i always have enough RP to FS or Oblit, i should just let rime fall off correct?
Assuming single target mobs.
and should i be waiting to use death and decay over Oblit after the first rune rotation? (i IT/PS/Pest/HB/BB in that order for first rotation)
It's up to you really when it comes to the difference between single target and multiple target. Usually it's good to use up Rime at the end of your RP dump because Oblit procs Rime, and thats a rime wasted if it overwrites. Multi-target, you'll always want to use up Rime+KM as soon as it comes up because that will net you a lot of damage. Single target, its a nice chunk of HB crit, but you could use that KM for a nice FS crit.
Sigil of the Hanged Man will likely be the top sigil for most fights in ICC. However, there may be a few encounters where maintaining 100% uptime on the stacking buff will be impossible, and therefore [Sigil of Virulence] will likely become the best sigil. Furhtermore, for exclusively single target fights, [Sigil of Awareness] may end up being better, but more math needs to be done on that subject.
Can someone please do the math for SoV vs. SoA? It is really easy to switch the sigils before the singletarget fights, just need to know when to do it. Will the use of SoA become better with more armor penetration? Thanks.
Can someone please do the math for SoV vs. SoA? It is really easy to switch the sigils before the singletarget fights, just need to know when to do it. Will the use of SoA become better with more armor penetration? Thanks.
Don't have the math for it. But have been doing a fair amount of testing with it, both through Kahorie's Simulator, Rawr and ingame.
Kahorie's simulator gives the highest single target dps with Virulence, even with ArP up at around 1k, though it's pretty much even at that level.
Rawr gives the highest single target dps with Awareness, no matter the gear.
Ingame experience, which is with ~245 gear, says they are pretty much equal, and tonight I'll have some logs to compare as well, for some more on hand information to work with.
Anyone else notice some lower than normal DPS this week?
The first week on Saurfang, I ran 8600 dps. I have since upgraded my offhander from 232 Grinder to the Quel'delar, and even changed up a few dps pieces to max out. (According to the stat scale, it should have been quite a bit better.) So I should have easily gone up a decent amount.
The results are not good though. Just finished up ICC 25 clear for this week, and even with the upgrades, my dps went down quite a bit. I pulled right at 8050 instead of the 8600 the previous week. (I had even timed army of the dead to get a little extra this week, when last week I did not.) I will point out that I did not have the 4% physical damage buff from blood frenzy, so that will make up a portion of my loss.
I know dummy tests are not good measuring sticks, but I beat on this guy quite often just so test my upgrades as I pick up them. I always test them with the same spec, and they are always at 0% so necrosis only does 1 damage.
After I got my quel'delar, I was running 5400 dps on the dummy. After the patch this week, I cant even break over 5200 dps, and even had one as low as 4900. It is not just one test either, I have done it multiple times, and its always the same.
I am trying to figure out if there is a bug with one of the talents. Most of them seemed to be working, but it wasnt quite as simple to test the NoCS as the others ones, so I didnt try that. I also did no check to see if the ones working were stacking properly. Something feels off though.
I did also notice that Freezing Fog procs seemed to be much less frequent here recently. I ran some test on it, and it seemed to only be proccing off of main hand attacks now. I know when it was first implemented, it worked for both main hander and offhander obliterate hits. Has it been main hand only for awhile now, or is this a new thing?
12/14/09, 11:14 PM
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