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Old 04/05/10, 4:06 PM   #1201
Aatis
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Moonrunner
I had done the original testing on Razorice damage, though I don't know if they ever changed it from the old terrible that it was, but assuming its the same I'll reiterate:

Razorice does 2% of the base damage of whatever weapon you have equipped in your mainhand (assuming heroic BVB - 456-847, this equates to 9-17 damage + %magic damage modifiers). This damage is unaffected by attack power, crit, armor penetration, or which weapon is actually enchanted with razorice, so the only way to noticably increase the damage done by razorice would be to use an extremely fast offhand with RI and a very slow/high damage mainhand - And even then the extra damage gained by using razorice would not be worth the damage loss to your strikes.

As said previously, there may be other reasons such as offhand strikes never missing as a reason to use FC on your offhand, but understand that there is no benefit to razorice directly regarding which hand is enchanted, unless you're forced to use sub-optimal fast weapons for other reasons.

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Old 04/05/10, 8:19 PM   #1202
Ehre
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Velen
Originally Posted by Mewantbrains View Post
Yeah, I'm definitely enjoying the split rune rotation. I need to record some logs, but it looks like I'm pulling around 12.5k on saurfang/festergut with 251 weapons and still 3 pieces of 251 T10. Guild needs to kill the LK so I can actually get the 264 axes from 10 man or the Havoc's Call.

I've been prioritizing KM/rime over KM/FS only when I feel like I'm short of RP. This allows me to carry RP over to other dump phases and make sure I have enough RP to use all of my future KM procs.

As for the opening discussion...I'd say it's fairly important. Like I said previously, I open with IT, PS, OB, FS, HoW, BS, Pest. Since I split my runes in the beginning, my runes remain split for the entire fight. This gives four RP dumps per 20s which almost always allows me to 1) use KM/FS before it overwrites itself 2) Always use death runes for OB 3) Always refresh diseases with pest. I'm generally limited to KM by RP generation not GCD's.

I've been trying this out on a dummy for around thirty minutes now. I've noticed my self buffed dps going up around 300 or so by basically ignoring my KM procs until i have my runes on cooldown along with casting KM + FS then HB when i get a KM Rime proc...

My question is,, could you elaborate on exactly what you're doing as your opener? Are you forced to use a blood tap to get your disease back up so you dont sacrifice your first set of death runes? How do you use your cooldowns and ghoul with this style?

Is this basically an unholy rotation with a disease glyph and FS / HB (rime) when your runes are on cooldown?

Thanks

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Old 04/06/10, 11:21 AM   #1203
Sweetarts
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Mug'thol
Messing around with a simulator this morning, I switched all my str gems, to the str/haste, and any epic gems to pure haste gems. The interesting thing is that I lost only around 200 DPS, I am beginning to wonder if there is a gear/haste point where haste overtakes the other stats?

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Old 04/06/10, 11:27 AM   #1204
IcewalkerDK
Glass Joe
 
IcewalkerDK's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
<HAX>
Malfurion
Originally Posted by Sweetarts View Post
Messing around with a simulator this morning, I switched all my str gems, to the str/haste, and any epic gems to pure haste gems. The interesting thing is that I lost only around 200 DPS, I am beginning to wonder if there is a gear/haste point where haste overtakes the other stats?
I've been wondering this myself...seeing as we already have so much haste, won't we get more benefit if we continue to build up our haste? So many of our abilities already have high crit thanks to talents, and as the graph posted before shows, haste outscales crit rather significantly after you get to a certain point. What I'm going to do is regem tonight before my ICC 25 to Str/Haste gems rather than Str/Crit, and see how it comes out.

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Old 04/06/10, 11:29 AM   #1205
 Darkside
I find your lack of faith disturbing
 
Darkside's Avatar
 
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
 
No WoW Account
Haste isn't like ArPen, it scales linearly so that each point of haste gives an absolute increase identical to the previous points. As you get more of other stats, it's relative value will increase (and yes, there will be a theoretical breakpoint, but we don't really know where that is).

Originally Posted by Silmeria View Post
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors

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Old 04/06/10, 11:38 AM   #1206
IcewalkerDK
Glass Joe
 
IcewalkerDK's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
<HAX>
Malfurion
Are there any processes or anything we can do to find the breakpoint? I can try changing gems and running it through the robot sim one at a time, to see when DPS starts increasing...would that work?

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Old 04/06/10, 11:56 AM   #1207
IcewalkerDK
Glass Joe
 
IcewalkerDK's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
<HAX>
Malfurion
Ok, looking at BiS gear for DKs, it seems like once you get to ~40% crit from gear then haste is better. (This is only concerning orange gems, when you gem Str/Haste rather than Str/Crit).

Changing gems from pure Strength to Str/Haste is a loss in DPS, no matter how you do it. For each gem I changed from +20 Strength to 10 Str/10 Haste, roughly 20 DPS was lost.

(I used the Team Robot sim for these, with the IT glyph, not GoD seeing as sims aren't using GoD properly yet. For each gem changed I ran the sim 3 times to get a good average value.)

*Edit* The increase in haste also increased the value of Necrosis and Blood Caked Blade, bring necrosis up to 6% of total damage, and BCB up to 3.6%.

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Old 04/06/10, 9:55 PM   #1208
Thundercleese
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Proudmoore
Would it be more beneficial to enchant my gloves with +15 expertise than +44 AP if I am under Exp cap?

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Old 04/06/10, 11:37 PM   #1209
Mewantbrains
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Ehre View Post
I've been trying this out on a dummy for around thirty minutes now. I've noticed my self buffed dps going up around 300 or so by basically ignoring my KM procs until i have my runes on cooldown along with casting KM + FS then HB when i get a KM Rime proc...

My question is,, could you elaborate on exactly what you're doing as your opener? Are you forced to use a blood tap to get your disease back up so you dont sacrifice your first set of death runes? How do you use your cooldowns and ghoul with this style?

Is this basically an unholy rotation with a disease glyph and FS / HB (rime) when your runes are on cooldown?

Thanks
My opener is: IT, PS, OB, FS, HoW, BS, Pest. This gives a decent split between the the death/blood runes and the UF runes. After this, it's very similar to a UH rotation. You don't have to worry too much about watching KM procs as you'll be prioritizing rune usage over KM (pending your rune grace period). Most KM procs will get used before they overwrite since you have so many RP dump phases. The KM procs that do overwrite are usually from RP shortage not from a lack of GCD's to use FS (IE these KM proc's would be wasted even using priority).

Still trying to figure out how to sim this. Anecdotally, it should provide the highest DPS since you are maximizing rune usage without giving anything up in return. KM/FS's may sometimes be pushed back a GCD, but it's fairly rare to proc 2 KM's within that short amount of time. Even if 2 KM's did proc, you would rarely have the RP to use both.

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Old 04/07/10, 2:37 AM   #1210
feior
Glass Joe
 
feior's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Because Frost Fever and Blood Plague do significant amounts of damage on their own, it is probably a DPS gain to allow them to run their complete duration on your target before reapplying them
Shouldn't this be "to allow the diseases to run their duration up until the window of the last tick" for 3.3.3? Just sounds counter-intuitive when the guide also recommends GoD.

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Old 04/07/10, 3:13 AM   #1211
Valtiel
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
Haste isn't like ArPen, it scales linearly so that each point of haste gives an absolute increase identical to the previous points. As you get more of other stats, it's relative value will increase (and yes, there will be a theoretical breakpoint, but we don't really know where that is).

Indeed, while there is a theorycal breakpoint, the same can be said for all other linearly scaling stats. It's true that the most Str you have the better Haste is, but it's equally true that the more Haste you have, the better Str become.

People tend to get confused about stat scaling either because of stats like crit (which suffer from diminishing returns, and that makes so that the more crit you have, the less you gain from each further point) or arp (which benefits from internal scaling, as in the more Arp you have the better Arp becomes). However these are exceptions more than the norm.

Modeling Haste will become probably a lot more complex and interesting in Cata when it's supposed to affect your resource income primarily.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

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Old 04/07/10, 4:26 AM   #1212
Bobfred21
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Lothar
Earlier in the thread someone suggested that rolling cinderglaciered diseases might be a DPS increase over razorice. This idea seemed to go down rather quietly but I was wondering if anyone had done any real testing? Somehow I don't think I can get a sim to prioritize Cinderglaciered diseases and then roll them.

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Old 04/07/10, 5:26 AM   #1213
över
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Originally Posted by Mewantbrains View Post
My opener is: IT, PS, OB, FS, HoW, BS, Pest. This gives a decent split between the the death/blood runes and the UF runes. After this, it's very similar to a UH rotation. You don't have to worry too much about watching KM procs as you'll be prioritizing rune usage over KM (pending your rune grace period). Most KM procs will get used before they overwrite since you have so many RP dump phases. The KM procs that do overwrite are usually from RP shortage not from a lack of GCD's to use FS (IE these KM proc's would be wasted even using priority).

Still trying to figure out how to sim this. Anecdotally, it should provide the highest DPS since you are maximizing rune usage without giving anything up in return. KM/FS's may sometimes be pushed back a GCD, but it's fairly rare to proc 2 KM's within that short amount of time. Even if 2 KM's did proc, you would rarely have the RP to use both.
Doesnt the timing that this opener creates end up leaving you no time to pop Bloodtap>Ua>cancelaura blood tap after Obliterating on Death Runes? When I try it this way I end up blowing UA into a frost rune and ruining the rotation due to that opener leaving 1 of the frost runes with 1 second left after the DR Oblit. This happens over 50% of the time and I am playing at about 20ms testing on a dummy. In a Raid I'd imagine it would be worse.

Do you get this issue or do you use UA in another way due to your setup?

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Old 04/07/10, 8:08 AM   #1214
Jhaze
Banned
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Hakkar (EU)
Originally Posted by Bobfred21 View Post
Earlier in the thread someone suggested that rolling cinderglaciered diseases might be a DPS increase over razorice. This idea seemed to go down rather quietly but I was wondering if anyone had done any real testing? Somehow I don't think I can get a sim to prioritize Cinderglaciered diseases and then roll them.
some "pro" players use to roll diseases with cinderglacier and tott.
Paragon's death knights,for example,do that.
They use mh/oh obviously with fc and razorice,but they use initially an offhand with cinderglacier,then they simply weapon swap.
They also do that as 2h unholy with GoD,I'm just curious on how does it works exactly,and how does they're opening rotation looks like.

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Old 04/07/10, 5:10 PM   #1215
Mewantbrains
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by över View Post
Doesnt the timing that this opener creates end up leaving you no time to pop Bloodtap>Ua>cancelaura blood tap after Obliterating on Death Runes? When I try it this way I end up blowing UA into a frost rune and ruining the rotation due to that opener leaving 1 of the frost runes with 1 second left after the DR Oblit. This happens over 50% of the time and I am playing at about 20ms testing on a dummy. In a Raid I'd imagine it would be worse.

Do you get this issue or do you use UA in another way due to your setup?
Usually it doesn't clash. For me it hasn't really been a problem. If it ends up being an issue for you, waiting to use HoW should fix that. It will move your blood/death runes up 1 GCD.

Originally Posted by iddqd84 View Post

- do i delay my OBL/BS for FS? (eg OBL will be available in ~ 0.8 seconds, do i wait for OBL OR do i FS and then OBL right after? Different classes do handle it on different ways, rets play FCFS and furys wait for their more important abilities, how do we do?
In this situation, yes, you would delay the OB .8s. You have a grace window on your runes that allows you to have a bit of leeway when you use them. In the situation you stated, if you use OB at time 0 (IE wait the .8s) or you use it at time .7 (FS and wait for GCD), your runes will come back off CD at the same time.

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