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Old 04/09/10, 5:51 PM   #46
Neddie
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Smolderthorn
Originally Posted by Mindaika View Post
The descriptor says "[Dark Simulacrum] won't work on abilities that can't be reflected" so generally, no. I really don't think what they have in mind is us reflecting Frost Breaths and the like. It seems to me like it's intended to be a PvP thing, i.e. capture a nice polymorph and use it on the mage that cast it.
Probably not frost breath, since that can't be reflected. Warriors can only spell reflect spells that are targeted (not AoE, not cone attacks, not environmental damage), and they can only reflect harmful spells. If Dark Simulacrum is similar to that, only those types of abilities will be copyable. In PvE this means you might be able to copy the Ahn'kahar Spell Flinger's Shadow Blast spell, the Devourer of Souls' Phantom Blast, or Jaraxxus' Fel Fireball.

Here's the problem though. The spell has to go off for it to be copied, and the target takes the full force of the hit. With spell reflection, not only does the warrior hit back, he also avoids taking any damage from the spell. This makes it superior to an interrupt in most cases because it does a lot of damage (or a debuff, or whatever) and the warrior is unaffected. In the case of Dark Simulacrum, the original spell goes off, and does whatever damage it would normally have done. In the case of Shadow Blast or Fel Fireball, you really don't want it to hit anyone, so interrupting it becomes much higher priority than copying it. In almost every case, if a spell can be reflected, it can also be interrupted.

In PvP, it's even worse. Against a caster, a warrior can wait until just before a big nuke goes off, and then hit spell reflection, avoiding taking any damage, and not letting the caster know it will be reflected until it's too late. Dark Simulacrum, it sounds like, may need to be on the target before the spell cast starts, allowing a clever PvPer to choose a very weak spell to have copied: i.e. warlock sees Dark Simulacrum come up, throws off a curse of weakness (something that if it's put on him really won't affect him at all), and then goes back to casting fears or nukes.

The only advantage I see over it is that the DK doesn't seem to have to be the one targeted. This means in a raid, a warrior tank could theoretically reflect a Fel Fireball, while a DPS DK copies it, so Jaraxxus is hit with 2 fel fireballs. So, it could be a nice boost to DPS DKs, but not so much to tanking DKs who will still want to prioritize mind freeze over Dark Simulacrum.

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Old 04/09/10, 5:51 PM   #47
Nyth_
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
I think it's really hard to judge the new rune system with the limited information we have so far.

The main reason being that we don't really know how the cost of abilities is going to change. A while ago GC made a comment stating that they wanted to make Death and Decay a more tank centric ability, costing a single blood rune. Maybe he was already having this system in mind.

The same could be true for abilities like obliterate and scourge strike. Or the amount or RP generated per rune.

I think with the current information in mind we can say a few things though:

1) We'll very likely have more free GCD. Ghostcrawler already stated we would. I know quite a few people are against this, because DK are one of the few classes that actually press some kind of button constantly. But I think it's a change for the better. I see it likely that we'll use about 2-3 rune abilities per 10 seconds and another 1-2 runic power abilities. That's already 4-5 GCD which equals 6-7.5 seconds. Add in the possibility of having "free cost" abilities, or cheaper abilities and that will only go up.
That is still much more than most other melee classes do.

On top of that comes the added effect that special attacks might turn into actual special attacks again. I'm not sure about others, but I personally never really liked the concept of your special attacks doing 2/3th of the damage of a white swing.

2) Another advantage that I'm not sure anyone here touched yet is flexibility.
Not only does this mean we lose FAR less damage in mobile fights. It also means we can strategically handle our runes.

Think of fights like XT-002 where you have set burst phases. Pooling up some extra "rune buffer" could play in on some more strategical gameplay. An element that DK resources have been severely lacking in WotLK. Currently you HAVE to burn your stuff or you're simply losing damage.
Another example is Lich King, where you might want to pool up slightly before the val'kyrs come. Imagine waiting 15 seconds instead of 10 seconds before you continue your rotation. Instead of having to wait 5 seconds between rune sets, you can now chain 6 runes in a row.

Again though. It is really difficult to see the final impact without knowing what new abilities we get, and how old abilities change.

One of the concerns I read on the EU forums was that disease applying will now create really dull rotations and long deadzones.
Because basically if things stay unchanged you get a rotation consisting of: PS > IT > BS.
And that's it. If you are doing 5 mans, you might very well see that rotation on every trash pack without much else.

Again though that's a bit unclear since we don't know what and how that's going to change.

One question I have about the rune system change is whether or not they will be able to implement death runes again. With how we think the rune system is supposed to currently work (like Consider had described in his post) I don't see a way that the entire blood rune "bar" could become a death rune "bar" if the blood runes are already paired together. The only possibility is converting the entire bar into death runes and then having to wait until its at 100% before unleashing a FU strike and consuming the entire bar, however that seems to contradict the point of their changes.

It may still work for the blood tree due to it converting a frost/unholy rune pair instead of just blood runes, but I can't think of a way Reaping or BotN will work with these changes.
You are assuming like many others, that for some reason they are leaving the rune cost of abilities unchanged.

I wouldn't at all be surprised is something like obliterate will instead of 1FU pair simply cost 1 frost rune. Then death runes get their value back right away.

You have to think outside the box, because they are clearly going to have to overhaul many of our abilities.

Last edited by Nyth_ : 04/09/10 at 6:04 PM.

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Old 04/09/10, 5:58 PM   #48
Neddie
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Smolderthorn
Originally Posted by kc102 View Post
I'm thinking the armor and damage reduction from Frost Pres will be removed and you're gonna end up with presences being a little more interesting. The bonuses will just be Blood Mastery or a talent in there. As for DW tanking, maybe 8 points into Frost and then into Blood completely?
Have they said they're removing tanking presences / stances / righteous fury? If so, that would be odd. Just because you chose tanking talents doesn't mean you necessarily want to generate a lot of threat. There are plenty of fights (Festergut for example) where there's a tank swap, but the tank who swaps out doesn't want to generate any threat for a while, so they switch to battle stance, cat form, blood presence or take off Righteous Fury and start DPSing.

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Old 04/09/10, 8:19 PM   #49
Etio
Glass Joe
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Neddie View Post
Have they said they're removing tanking presences / stances / righteous fury? If so, that would be odd. Just because you chose tanking talents doesn't mean you necessarily want to generate a lot of threat. There are plenty of fights (Festergut for example) where there's a tank swap, but the tank who swaps out doesn't want to generate any threat for a while, so they switch to battle stance, cat form, blood presence or take off Righteous Fury and start DPSing.
Quite the opposite, blizz said they would most likely have these buffs/stances/presences be how one becomes crit immune with the removal of defense on tank gear.

On the Rune Changes, Ive noticed one blizzard post that really intrigued me that might clear some things up. Everyone is assuming that the individual rune is still on a 10 second cool down.
Essentially, you have three sets of runes filling every 10 seconds instead of six individual runes filling every 10 seconds.
Maybe I'm wrong but when I read this I understand it as, each individual rune has a 5 second cool down and that the rune SET (as a whole) will return in 10seconds.

Last edited by Etio : 04/09/10 at 8:39 PM.

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Old 04/09/10, 8:53 PM   #50
Neddie
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Smolderthorn
Originally Posted by Etio View Post
Maybe I'm wrong but when I read this I understand it as, each individual rune has a 5 second cool down and that the rune SET (as a whole) will return in 10seconds.
I'm pretty sure that they mean the set will return in 20 seconds. I agree that the wording is fuzzy, but if you work out how the rotation changes if the whole set returns in 10s, you'll find out that you have even fewer GCDs available than you do with today's rotations.

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Old 04/10/10, 3:23 AM   #51
Larisroth
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
I like the idea behind the rune system change, and can see the reasoning behind the single tanking tree (with hopefully some useful abilities for dps in the early tiers).

The changes seem to be lacking in specifics compared to some of the other classes, such as what the form of the unholy mastery is going to be (it's not phrased like some of the other increase x masteries). With such dramatic an overhaul I guess they're even pretty vague on how the changes will play out.

The more I think about it, I really like the idea behind the new rune system. It allows for much more dynamic play. For the most part you'll have a 10 second window to use your runes in, which is a great improvement over the way it plays now.

I found it quite suprising that they didn't mention any changes to our diseases. Almost every other class had the standard haste / crit will apply to most HoTs and DoTs. Haste will increase the number of damage ticks. Furthermore all DoT reapplications will act like the GoD does now, and just reset the duration. This means we will want to refresh our diseases as they're about to expire, there is no cost for clipping them, and letting them drop off is a bad idea as you'll likely lose part of a tick. Haste is also going to increase the rune refresh rate, so we're unlikely to have anything resembling a 20 second cycle. With the extra freedom in the rune system we won't need one though, but it will take a bit of getting used to.

I'm inclined to suspect while we'll have some free times in our cycles, unless haste is changed to reduce melee gcds, we won't be in much danger of straying into pushing a button every 5 seconds territory.

Some points of interest to me:

1) The masteries are for melee damage. How do you balance that given that unholy will be doing more magical damage than frost (probably not too hard if they limit the max bonus).

2) What happens to pets. They're supposed to be a focus of the unholy tree, yet for the most part our pets are just viewed as cooldowns or passive damage in pve at least.

3) Why hasn't expertise been modified in some form or just removed completely. While the mechanic behind it isn't too hard to explain, the way expertise rating gets converted into expertise and then reducing your chance to have an attack avoided is rather awkward, Especially considering it shares a gem colour with the main dps stats.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

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Old 04/10/10, 4:43 AM   #52
rh8452
Piston Honda
 
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Worgen Mage
 
Kel'Thuzad
DS is likely to get reworked a lot (or replaced) before Cata goes live. The mechanic sounds just a bit clunky and confusing, and its utility is going to be questionable at best - in PVE it may add some burst damage, but will it affect bosses? Will the DS debuff on a target fall off after time, will it drop off if the target casts a nonreflectable spell, or will it stay on endlessly until the target casts a reflectable spell? In some instances using it may be a DPS loss if you use the runes/RP to cast it, but the debuff falls off before a spell is cast that you can copy. We'll need to see the beta before making any conclusions, but I don't believe this ability is going to work out well for PVE in its current stated form.

In PVP anyone with active brain cells will spot it and cast a weak spell to use it up, so its usefulness will be pretty situational there, sort of like something you cast on say a mage because you know he's planning to poly your healer, forcing him to cast something else first to get rid of the debuff, otherwise he'll find himself (or his teammate) a sheep as well.

I do have some concerns about the direction the trees are going as well - both frost and unholy will both still have a lot of magic damage abilities. It sounds to me like unholy will be pushing its magic damage passively - melee strikes that do a lot of physical damage, with disease / other damage constantly ticking underneath, whereas frost will be pushing magic damage more actively - melee strikes that do some physical damage, diseases that tick weakly underneath, but magic strikes/abilities that are spammable and hit hard with charged up RP. The issue of course is that the rune system will leave lots of empty space while waiting for runes to become available again, and that empty space needs to be filled with RP dumps - but we only have one per tree, which is a tad boring. Necrotic strike and DS could consume RP to solve this.

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Old 04/10/10, 8:19 AM   #53
Griefpb
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Boulderfist
In the warlock/priest cata changes, the devs were discussing changes to disease mechanics.

Haste and Crit now affect dot ticks and 'clipping' of diseases doesn't exist anymore bc recasting the spell will just increase the duration instead of overwriting.

I'm wondering if the same would be true for dks, but the changes came and went and no mention so I'm assuming not. Has anyone seen anything about this? If you need the posts I can dig them up.

Originally Posted by Larisroth View Post
I found it quite suprising that they didn't mention any changes to our diseases. Almost every other class had the standard haste / crit will apply to most HoTs and DoTs. Haste will increase the number of damage ticks. Furthermore all DoT reapplications will act like the GoD does now, and just reset the duration. This means we will want to refresh our diseases as they're about to expire, there is no cost for clipping them, and letting them drop off is a bad idea as you'll likely lose part of a tick.
You noticed it as well, that change makes sense to me as opposed to overwriting each time.

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Old 04/10/10, 8:45 AM   #54
sarbian
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Dalaran (EU)
Originally Posted by Griefpb View Post

Haste and Crit now affect dot ticks and 'clipping' of diseases doesn't exist anymore bc recasting the spell will just increase the duration instead of overwriting.

I'm wondering if the same would be true for dks, but the changes came and went and no mention so I'm assuming not. Has anyone seen anything about this? If you need the posts I can dig them up.
GC said that all DoT will work the same way in the warrior thread and there is a similar comment about clipping in the priest thread.

Almost all dots will crit. The exception will be things like Deep Wounds and Ignite because those are already the product of a crit. Rend will crit.

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Old 04/10/10, 11:07 AM   #55
Arkasi
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Skywall
Given the information present, I don't think the Deathknight's playstyle will change from being global cooldown bound. In fact I think we're more likely to find ourselves in Unholy presence straining for more. The problem is the Haste changes.

Looking at Consider's chart we're presented with a number of possible outcomes:

1. We get new buttons to press to fill in those empty gbc's that are resource free. Thusly no change.

2. Runic power costs are adjusted to some magic number, we fill up those free gbc's with Rp abilities. No change.

3. Haste, as stated, affects Rune regeneration, theorycrafters find the Haste "Cap" to provide enough Rp for #2. No change.

4. Haste affects Rune regeneration and the Gbc, play in fact speeds up, higher Haste "Cap" go to #3. No change.

For 3 and 4 if Haste can actually arrive at the appropriate values then we might even see people moving into Unholy presence to hit even faster causing play to actually feel more piano like, and looser due to the 200% wiggle room, as opposed to less. Blood might even need it as a third cap to maintain threat giving us a distinctly warrior "my poor poor hands" flavor.

The only way we'll actually see those large spaces between hitting abilities is if the Stat-to-Ap coefficients are so large on other stats that we don't seek it out on gear which will probably negatively impact the other plate dps classes. Or, Haste has such a small coefficient that it feels like a punishment if our gear has it at all.

Either way, can't wait for the juicy details and what some of the more masterful Theorycrafters conclude.

*edit: Consider mentioned most of this earlier.*

Last edited by Arkasi : 04/10/10 at 11:16 AM.

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Old 04/10/10, 11:25 AM   #56
 Darkside
I find your lack of faith disturbing
 
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Kroot
Orc Death Knight
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Arkasi View Post
Given the information present, I don't think the Deathknight's playstyle will change from being global cooldown bound. In fact I think we're more likely to find ourselves in Unholy presence straining for more. The problem is the Haste changes.

Looking at Consider's chart we're presented with a number of possible outcomes:

1. We get new buttons to press to fill in those empty gbc's that are resource free. Thusly no change.

2. Runic power costs are adjusted to some magic number, we fill up those free gbc's with Rp abilities. No change.

3. Haste, as stated, affects Rune regeneration, theorycrafters find the Haste "Cap" to provide enough Rp for #2. No change.

4. Haste affects Rune regeneration and the Gbc, play in fact speeds up, higher Haste "Cap" go to #3. No change.

For 3 and 4 if Haste can actually arrive at the appropriate values then we might even see people moving into Unholy presence to hit even faster causing play to actually feel more piano like, and looser due to the 200% wiggle room, as opposed to less. Blood might even need it as a third cap to maintain threat giving us a distinctly warrior "my poor poor hands" flavor.

The only way we'll actually see those large spaces between hitting abilities is if the Stat-to-Ap coefficients are so large on other stats that we don't seek it out on gear which will probably negatively impact the other plate dps classes. Or, Haste has such a small coefficient that it feels like a punishment if our gear has it at all.

Either way, can't wait for the juicy details and what some of the more masterful Theorycrafters conclude.
I'm reasonably confident you are wrong about this. The entire point of the rune changes was to remove the GCD lock that many DKs find themselves in, so we are almost assuredly not going to find ourselves being forced into Unholy presence.

As it stands right now, we could maybe get up to 50% haste or so in ICC gear, which would only bring us to 75% of the rune pool that we have right now. Assuming the cost of abilities aren't adjusted too radically, this would leave us is a state of not being GCD locked in full end-game gear.

Furthermore, I think you're reading far too much into the comments about them making abilities free. This probably applies strictly to cooldowns and other 'utility' abilities like Gargoyle, DRW etc. Allowing us to use such abilities for free will naturally lead to a few more globals here and there, but not enough to swing us into UP.

The last bit of information that contradicts your assumptions is Frost's Mastery bonus. As it stands, the bonus becomes rather useless once you reach a certain critical point and find yourself with all your GCDs filled (and then another critical point when your close to locked in UP). If they tune the class so that your GCDs are filled right from the get-go, the bonus will be completely and absolutely useless. While that is certainly a possible outcome of all these changes, it is highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by Silmeria View Post
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors

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Old 04/10/10, 1:12 PM   #57
rh8452
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Worgen Mage
 
Kel'Thuzad
I can't say I mind being GCD locked. The most fun I've ever had playing as a DK was when the dual-wield unholy IUP spec was viable; I loved fast GCDs and mashing of endless single-rune attacks fuelling death coil spam, not to mention it was fun in PVP being impossible to kite since 2/3 of my damage was ranged. If haste affects rune refresh, white swings, ghoul white swings/damage/claw GCD, gargoyle, and spell GCD, it ought to prove the most valuable stat on gear for us in the expansion. So stacking massive amounts of haste in order to have as little empty space as possible sounds like it could be both viable and fun.

Haste not affecting our strike GCD has been its only limiting factor, I'm unsure if that'll be changed in the expansion or not. But the goal of maximizing DPS has always been to get the most out of the resources we have available while minimizing the amount of downtime where we're resourceless. That doesn't sound like it's going to change with the new rune system, we're going to strive to find ways to fill that empty gap while runes are on cooldown up and to shorten it as much as possible.

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Old 04/10/10, 1:33 PM   #58
Amroo
LF sun
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Anub'arak (EU)
You are aware of the fact that they could just (and definitely will, since pretty much all classes become more haste dependant due to the change in DoT mechanics) change the "rating to percent"-conversion of haste to adjust for the increase in utility it will provide? Haste will certainly become more interesting from a theorycrafting perspective, but whether it outshines strength etc. will only depend on this conversion rate. If the conversion rate right now would be twice as much percentage per rating, we would be socketing haste instead of strength already.
And I don't mean how much rating you need for 1% compared to now (since that will most definitely increase as with all previous expanisons), but how much the rating increases compared to crit, hit, etc.

Originally Posted by Frozn View Post
You can be sure that I will never post something anymore. Your arrogance and snobism makes me feel sick, enjoy your idiot infractions. Your community just lost one of the best moonkin of the alliance (gearscore).

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Old 04/10/10, 6:39 PM   #59
Arkasi
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
I'm reasonably confident you are wrong about this. The entire point of the rune changes was to remove the GCD lock that many DKs find themselves in, so we are almost assuredly not going to find ourselves being forced into Unholy presence.

As it stands right now, we could maybe get up to 50% haste or so in ICC gear, which would only bring us to 75% of the rune pool that we have right now. Assuming the cost of abilities aren't adjusted too radically, this would leave us is a state of not being GCD locked in full end-game gear.

Furthermore, I think you're reading far too much into the comments about them making abilities free. This probably applies strictly to cooldowns and other 'utility' abilities like Gargoyle, DRW etc. Allowing us to use such abilities for free will naturally lead to a few more globals here and there, but not enough to swing us into UP.

The last bit of information that contradicts your assumptions is Frost's Mastery bonus. As it stands, the bonus becomes rather useless once you reach a certain critical point and find yourself with all your GCDs filled (and then another critical point when your close to locked in UP). If they tune the class so that your GCDs are filled right from the get-go, the bonus will be completely and absolutely useless. While that is certainly a possible outcome of all these changes, it is highly unlikely.
My interpretation of the rune changes is that we are resource locked where a rune off cooldown is a waste, and that in turn is causing the gbc lock. This frees up space for new mechanics for us to use, but once those are accomidated player psychology tells me that people will try and tighten those up to the absolute max. While the new rune setup prevents us from being penalized by waiting it does not encourage waiting when you don't have to, so why would players not try to maximize haste to the point of being gbc bound?

Also, I likely am reading entirely too far into the presented info, but Frost's Mastery Bonus seems rather ambiguous. Generating runic power is already "appealing", I can't actually see how it is not appealing, much less needing to be made more so. If they meant easier, why not just say so. The ambiguity leaves open a different mechanic unrelated to how much rp you gain for something similar to new arcane mage mechanics.

I am probably so wrong it makes babies cry, but I can't imagine 4 second or more gaps of doing nothing to survive long through beta without negative feedback or an amazingly good/fun reason.

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Old 04/10/10, 6:45 PM   #60
Thx_138
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Eldre'Thalas
Dark Sim could be a fairly nice PvE ability depending on whether or not they design encounters to include it and spell reflect. I don't see where it says you have to be the target of the spell so i theory you can put up Dark Sim copy the spell and send it back while the tank takes the damage from the original. Seems like it could possibly be a nice dps talent to me. The deciding factor will be encounter design and the cost of the ability.

Edit for spelling.

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