Good point. Either they'll have to increase the radius for the treant snare, or give it some proximity stun component. Like thorn explosion upon death, causing damage and stunning the target.

As for Solar Beam while rooted, don't expect it to be allowed, only in your wildest dreams. 10 seconds of sitting silenced unable to do anything just ain't going to happen-- they'll institute something to prevent that as the mass QQ from casters starts trickling in.

Going back to treants though, a snare in exchange of your supposed 3 minute damage cooldown getting 2-3 shot by AoE is hardly consolaton. It's a 3 minute cooldown. Not 1, 3. Water elemental does not have the survivability issues bcause it's a raanged pet ad walking up to it to aoe it down is stupid, while feral spirit has basically unkillable wolves (or at least trying to kill them will be a very stupid decision). With the treants, trivially killing them is a no brainer, and that's what I take issue with. In PvE, too, the treants rarely last their full duration. Treants also get around 1/3 of their duration cut by aoe CC like aoe fear/frost nova.

The shadow priest silence is 5 seconds, compared to 12 seconds, and they've already hinted at reducing silence effects/other CC.

I'm speaking from the background of a previous feral in BC beta who say ferals take a sledgehammer and took until one xpac to recover.

I really don't understand why some of you think rooting + solar beam is overpowered. I really don't. You do realize that you can only root one target, and effectively you need to cast a 1.5 sec duration spell + solar beam to effect a silence that a normal silence doesn't need two buttons to work, nor does a stun.

[I would need to silence immediately in most 1 on 1 situations, so i'd normally solar beam before rooting to stop that heal cast, in some cases I will root first but if i were to attack it will break after one damage spell, it has pros and cons]

So in most situations solar beam might end up being more like an interrupt. There are some interesting uses and applications of it off course, think about BGs and some pve situations, but roots does break easily too, so I see it as different, and having some interesting applications, but not as something that needs to be nerfed.

And mooboom, just because they didn't mention bar position effecting spells in the Q&A doesn't mean it's not there or intended or is not part of the works, for me not mentioning something does not mean it is not intended, it means it wasn't mentioned.

Interestingly, the WoWhead has Solar Beam applying a 5 second Silence debuff called Solar Beam, so the root effect might not even be necessary. Also, the Solar Beam AoE is 10 seconds, not 12. Furthermore, it wouldn't be something you would want to open with against another caster in a 1 on 1 situation. You'd be better off saving it for when you need a breather to heal. In a 2 on 2 situation, you still wouldn't open with it. You would save it for when you've gotten one target near death, then you lock out their healer.

So, is that mechanic mentioned somewhere? Because it looks to me like they just described how they want Eclipse to work and what it will do and it doesn't mention anything about bar position excepted for canceling the 45 sec. Eclipse buff.

Concerning SS, I think we will be using it on every cd in our rotation, outside of eclipse to generate energy faster and proc following eclipse and inside of eclipse to make it last longer having in mind it will push eclipse bar "backwards".

The verbiage of that quote from Blue implies that the bar will only move in one direction while under the effects of Eclipse.

As far as bar position buffing damage, we can say that it doesn't work that way currently. We can also say that the quote you are referencing where Blizzard hinted at this is among the oldest responses to queries about the new Eclipse. I think based on the fact that it has not resurfaced since then, we should not plan on it when considering how Eclipse will work. If it shows up later on, great, and we can work with it then.

There is no doubt that the balance druid rotation is slowly spinning into a boring rotation. I think many folks have hit the nail on the head when saying that Eclipse should do more than just buff damage. In fact, maybe there shouldn't even be a damage buff as a percentage but rather a fundamental change to how the spells interact. The idea of Starfire either placing a DoT or extending Moonfire is nice. Maybe we're asking for the wrong things. Instead of asking for a certain number of charges to use, let's stick with the timed buff. Now, lets focus on placing as many charges within the buffs time and then having them consumed upon the completion of Eclipse. They could detonate on the target, offer a self buff that increases damage (so that Eclipse becomes almost like Savage Roar), refresh/increase the time on the DoTs active on the target, or any number of different interactions.

While I'm sure there's a blue or two sniffing around here, let me say that the druid presence on the Beta forums is almost nil. I think we need to get some type of compendium going on over there. I imagine that the lack of blue attention there has to do with the fact that druids are still in their fledgling stage and there are already changes planned so responding to points that will soon be outdated is not a priority. I think we need to get on and point out just how uninteresting the rotation really is. If I have some time later I will type up a small bit on the rotation and how it is really not based on decisions but rather responds to a single buff in game (as pointed out above)

I've been meaning to write up something about the Twitter Eclipse; I've just been busy. There are number of things to be said about it--some have already been mentioned above. I'm probably going to wait to write up something more detailed to communicate to the devs and/or post on the Beta forum until that Eclipse change or something similar actually goes into the beta.

Also, once again, let's stop this talk about Eclipse bar position affecting damage. If there's ever some reason to believe it's a planned mechanic, we'll talk about it then.

I agree, actually. I believe that we should have a set rotation for both Nature and Arcane spells that works both during and outside of Eclipse. That would make Eclipse feel more passive which is more in line with many of the other masteries. Additionally, having a rotational mechanic that is tied to Eclipse is difficult to work out. If Starfire places a DoT similar to Languish on the target, how does that change anything about our rotation? It's a neat effect, but nothing changes as a result of it. We still cast Starfire ad infinitum.

But as I've mentioned before, it's something of a complex problem because we only have 3 spells to work with (for each School). If Moonfire had an effect on Starfire, that wouldn't change anything because we're already chaincasting Starfires. The only other spell would be Starsurge, which is on a cooldown. They could turn it into an instant crit similar to Lava Burst, but that still changes nothing. We already use it on cooldown. It's almost as if we need another spell worked in there somewhere, but I don't think that's likely to happen.

Edit:

I wanted to add my thoughts on Energy generation and how it should work if Eclipse is to be a cohesive, fully function mechanic.

1) Starfire and Wrath should always move toward their respective ends. This is how things work currently. Starfire pushes toward the Solar side, Wrath pushes toward the Lunar side.
2) Starsurge should always move away from the center of the bar. This makes it attractive to cast during Eclipse (by prolonging it) and outside of Eclipse (by making it proc more quickly). Currently, you wouldn't want to cast Starsurge during Eclipse because it would shorten your Eclipse uptime.
3) I believe DoT ticks should generate Energy (~2 per Insect Swarm tick, ~3 per Moonfire tick or ~1 per sec before haste). And I would base it on whether you are under the effects of Eclipse or not. This creates a very interesting setup similar to Starsurge. For example, let's say you have just procced Lunar Eclipse. Moonfire's ticks should then increase your Lunar Energy, thereby extending Lunar Eclipse. However, once Lunar Eclipse ends, it should generate Solar Energy, thereby reducing the time it takes to proc a Solar Eclipse. However, I would say that Moonfire should not generate energy during a Solar Eclipse. This would eliminate any overlap with the DoTs and prevents Wrath of Cenarius from being cumbersome during Solar Eclipses. Insect Swarm would have similar effects during Solar Eclipse. This was the only dynamic way I could think of having them interact with Eclipse that does not penalize you for having them up both during Eclipse and outside of Eclipse.
4) Also, Wild Mushroom, Starfall, Typhoon, and Force of Nature should have no Energy effects.

This ties all of our relevant spells into Eclipse. I realize it's completely contradictory to what I said earlier, but because Eclipse is the mechanic we will be revolving around, having spells that do not interact with it simply doesn't make much sense. Our Mastery needs to be integral to everything we do otherwise it is not as effective as the passive ones other DPS classes have. Obviously energy generation rates would have to be rebalanced in order to compensate for the effect of our DoTs.

This picture shows a good representation of what I'm talking about. It might make sense as I'm a much more visual person. Eclipse Cycle

Now you're talking about redesigning our base spells (or creating talents to change how they act, an idea I like). I can't help but wonder how willing Blizzard would be to take on this task. I continually find myself looking at what we have right now and wondering what pieces of our rotational puzzle they are willing to work on and what pieces they are not willing to work on.

While I agree that tying things to Eclipse would make the spec overly dependent on the mechanism, we are addressing many of the problems with Eclipse that we see on live, primarily movement and its impact on DPS. I feel as though all indications are pointing towards Eclipse being a crucial part of Balance DPS.

1) The Twitter Eclipse.

1.A) It fixes the primary Eclipse issue we've all discussed for a long time--the double penalty for interruptions. The actual time spent nuking during both Eclipse uptime and downtime will be independent of any time spent doing other things, such as casting DoT's/Starsurge/Cooldowns or moving. This is a big improvement, and just needs a few other issues ironed out.

1.B) It might give an incentive to remain in one Eclipse for the full 45s duration, by using W/SF in alternation to remain in Eclipse, even though only one spell is buffed. This will be the case if the mean Eclipse uptime you can achieve at 0 net energy use is greater than the mean Eclipse uptime when oscillating all the way across the scale. When will this be the case?

Well, mean Eclipse uptime in "normal" operation will be 50%, ignoring potential Starsurge use, since Eclipse will be up for 100 of the 200 energy required to traverse the bar. Whereas, when holding energy constant, uptime will be greater than 50% for one Eclipse and less than 50% for the other, since Wrath and Starfire don't generate energy at exactly equal rates. So, you will have reason to extend one Eclipse so long as Starsurge doesn't operate to increase normal Eclipse uptime significantly about 50%.

I think Starsurge should have such an effect on Eclipse uptime for this reason and others (more on this below), rendering this a non-issue. Also, if the tooltip is read to mean that, while in Eclipse, you can only move the slider towards the center, then this is a non-issue. I can't think of any serious problems that would arise if it worked that way, although I find it mildly inelegant.

1.C) It might give an incentive to repeatedly proc the same Eclipse. Simple logic here: break the cycle into two halves, one going from midpoint to Lunar and back to midpoint, the other going from midpoint to Solar and back to midpoint. One of these halves will do more damage than the other, and would be optimal to simply repeat that half-cycle perpetually. Possible solutions:
1.C.i) Make Eclipse fade not at the midpoint of the scale, but at a point slightly past it. I think this would work pretty pretty well, although I think the developers might find it potentially confusing.
1.C.ii) Some kind of cooldown. I'm pretty sure this going to be done anyway since the devs seem very intent on explicitly forcing alternation of the two Eclipses. The ICD must be short enough to not interfere with the normal intended alternation. This should be easy, since the time it takes to re-proc the same Eclipse and the time it takes to go across the bar and back differ by a factor of 2. Also, note that if saying in one Eclipse for the full duration, as described above, is indeed a possibility, that would circumvent a cooldown.

1.D) Talents which increase Eclipse energy gain no longer provide a significant benefit. This is easy to see, as you now spend half of each full traversal of the Eclipse bar under the effect of the buff, regardless of the rate of energy gain. There are some subtleties related to Starsurge, which I'll get to below. These talents (Imp. Eclipse and Euphoria) will have to be changed. One possibility is to make them only take effect when not under the Eclipse buff.

1.E) Eclipse uptime will no longer scale with haste and crit. A minor issue. I only bring it up to point out that it's probably insignificant. Everyone overestimating Eclipse uptime's increase based on haste and crit WLK anyway; it was minimal. Haste and crit will still have perfectly good scaling based on their ordinary effects on our spells (especially without capping effects), and exact details are easily tunable based on a variety of talents.

1.F) Conclusion: In its basic concept, the Eclipse which lasts until reaching the middle of the bar solves the most important problem with the Eclipse of WLK. There are a few outstanding outstanding issues, but functional solutions to any of them are easy to come by, and elegant ones can probably be found with some effort.


2) DoT's

A common lament is that DoT's don't interact sufficiently with Eclipse.

2.A) Refresh timing. In WLK, enough interaction was provided by the fact that you had to pay attention to the Eclipse cycle to know when to refresh DoT's. This interaction might be largely wiped out by the Eclipse change being discussed here though (for the same reason the change is so good--it will no longer discourage us from casting any other spells while Eclipse is up). However it's not completely imperative to find another way to make DoT's interact with Eclipse. As I just noted, the negative interaction from before will be gone. DoT's will be Eclipse-neutral--whether something more needs to be added is simply a function of whether, with all else taken into account, the rotation feels like it needs a bit more intricacy.

2.B) DoT's providing Eclipse energy. This I'm wary of because it risks serious overcomplication. Spells that affect the Eclipse energy bar many seconds into the future will decrease the general predictability of bar movement. It's possible there will be a stable state where you use only one DoT at a time based on which way you're trying to move the bar, but the subtleties of precisely when to refresh would still be very messy when searching for optimal play, especially in varying conditions.

2.C) DoT's benefitting from the Eclipse buff. This is much cleaner, and would still give you a reason to pay attention to Eclipse when refreshing DoT's, which I think is all people want. They way buff mechanics tend to work now, DoT's will check any +damage% buffs (such as Eclipse) upon casting, so there would be some advantage in refreshing during the correct Eclipse. A problem though, is that, we want DoT's to be quite strong in terms of DPET, to avoid the WLK issue where they were just an annoyance because they were barely worth casting. And if they're strong enough to want 100% uptime (which is almost a threshold requirement for DoT's to be useful), then Eclipse won't matter much--we'll just be keeping them up anyway.

2.D) Conclusion: Open. It depends on how much complexity needs to be added to the cycle after other things are in place. They do need something more than their own basic damage functionality, but probably not much more. Forcing interaction with Eclipse may not be the way to go. Just about any talent that does something with them would be enough. A proc that you have to react to in some way, like Molten Core or Hot Streak or the 4T8 Balance bonus, could work well here, since the rotation will have very little reaction otherwise, just repetition.


3) Starsurge. Right now it is essentially pointless.

3.A) Starsurge, unlike DoT's, is where some interaction with Eclipse seems to be right answer. Right now there is basically none. It generates roughly the same energy as Starfire or Wrath per unit time. You cast it on cooldown because it does a lot of damage. I am rather confident that a more substantial effect on the Eclipse energy bar is the starting point for this spell (even at the cost of some of its damage). Whether it benefits from the Eclipse buff or not is probably irrelevant.

3.B) Energy selection. The tooltip implies that SS will always move you away from the center. But the current beta functionality has it always move you away from the most recently proceed Eclipse. That makes sense under the current beta Eclipse, but the tooltip version is the one that would make more sense under the Twitter Eclipse (someone mentioned this above, and I'd also discussed it in chat with someone else a few days ago).

If SS always moves you away from most recently proceed Eclipse, then under the Twitter Eclipse system, you will never cast it while Eclipse is up. You will cast it while Eclipse is down, to reach the next Eclipse faster. That's actually a pretty interesting scenario already (providing SS actually gives enough energy for any of this to matter). But having it lengthen an Eclipse if used during its effect (which would be the result of the move-away-from center functionality) is much better yet. Firstly, casting it would never actively harm you by wasting your current Eclipse. Secondly, it provides a somewhat interesting choice of when to use it--to reach an Eclipse faster or extend an Eclipse. Perhaps one use will be better than the other in the stationary rotation, but the ability to use it differently depending on context would add a lot of intrigue to the spell. The cooldown would need to be long enough to prevent using it multiple times within one Eclipse.

Ordinarily I avoid armchair talent design in these discussions, but that design for Starsurge really feels very compelling to me.


4) Summary. Again, I don't want to make this all about a proposed talent design that I come up with--the focus is the analysis--but here's a simple list of things that could be implemented based on all the points above.
--The Eclipse bar works as described in the Twitter. While Eclipse is up, SF and W cannot move the bar back towards the near end of the scale (but SS still can). Each Eclipse on an independent cooldown of appropriate length (30s is fine if things don't change too much).
--SS always moves the bar towards the nearer end. It generates a lot of energy (say 40). If necessary for balance, reduce the damage of SS or the energy gain of SF and W to compensate. Cooldown is something like 20s--usable roughly once per half-cycle.
--Imp. Eclipse and Euphoria redesigned. I'm skeptical of making them increase Eclipse uptime since Eclipse uptime will already be rather high with this proposal for Starsurge. But regardless, they have to be redesigned anyway--it's not central to discussion what they might do.
--At least one talent makes DoT's do something besides tick for their ordinary damage, and perhaps introduces a bit of reactivity to a random occurrence. Maybe one of the above two talents could do this (there are currently no talents in the tree that meaningfully affect DoT's in the standard rotation).

I believe (and as Hamlet said), since uptime would be similar to 50/50, Haste would only cause the rotation as a whole to be quicker, where both the uptime and downtime are shorter.

A possible brainstorm idea for DoTs would be, depending on what Eclipse you are in, the respective DoT could have a chance to proc a reset of the SS cooldown (with SS working the way described in the tooltip), or possibly just giving you a free SS.