Balance Raiding in Cataclysm - Page 17

Videl · 07/28/10, 1:53 AM

There may be a mistake involved in there, he probably typed that list out from memory/on the fly. Even if shaman bring all the buffs they'd still be missing the debuffs, one of which (CoE) appears to still be the most powerful buff/debuff for casters.

More than the mobile damage potential it has, I'm concerned about the ramp up for WoC. Based on my experience in current content I very seldom move for more than a few seconds at a time, and often 2 or less. If it takes that long to ramp up after I've cast my first moonfire on the move then I'm not sure how it really does anything. It requires that I find myself making a fairly long move that doesn't take me out of range of the target and, at least currently, that doesn't really happen at all. Contrasted with movement options like throwing out a shock or fireblast or just plain refreshing dots I don't see how it's really possible to bring it up to par in a balanced way by just tweaking the numbers except on a really specific, odd type of fight.

Maax · 07/28/10, 6:02 AM

Just an idea I had about how they could make lunar and solar energy more of a resource and less of a timer counting down to Eclipse.

What if instead of a slider position, there was 2 unlinked energy pools (lunar and solar). Both pools can contain energy at the same time. Casting Arcane Damage spells generates x solar energy, and consumes y lunar energy (with x and y fixed costs per spell, higher damage spells costing/generating more etc.). Opposite for Nature Damage spells,

If there is enough lunar energy for the spells energy cost, it does extra damage equal to the current amount of energy (moonfire at 50 lunar energy gets 50% damage bonus).

Then the rotation would focus on keeping your spell casts equal between the schools to keep both energy pools as high as possible. Starsurge could generate energy in both pools. Mastery could then either increase the energy generated by spells or reduce the energy cost for the damage bonus.

With this system Eclipse would no longer be needed as a proc ability. But perhaps it could become an activated cool-down that would temporarily increase the maximum energy, and also cause the energy type generated by spells to swap (possibly also reduce or turn off energy consumption), so you could spam 1 school for higher bonus damage.

Lucrece · 07/28/10, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

Ghostcrawler recently made this post...

Are they considering giving Moonkin Form haste only now or was this simply over looked? Also, I think it's strange that Elemental Shaman bring every single caster buff.

Probably an oversight on the crit buff.

It has been alarming to me the place of elemental shamans right now in buff design. They gutted the raid buffs for moonkin down to 3. Hit and +spell damage, with all the other condensed raid buffs and battle rez is the reason we were even considered worth bringing in any comp.

If they balance hybrid dps to be fairly equal, I don't see why bringing an elemental shaman will not mean stacking the rest of the ranged with pure DPS, as the only other buff they don't bring is spell damage, and assassination rogues are bringing that.

Shamans and paladins are taking up the lion's share of important buffs, they should pay for it.

We'd be in a position like feral where we bring little outstanding utility, but the reason why ferals make it in to begin with is for their flexibility for switching between tanking and dps, and cat dps is at a pretty damn good place in relation with the other hybrids (only death knights and warriors reach the same performance).

Mjoedgaard · 07/28/10, 7:27 PM

I thing to remember is that there will properly be more 10 man raids and 25 man raids wont be the only thing that matters in balancing standpoint as both type of raids will have access to the same level of gear.

I really hope the 5% crit from moonkin is just GC forgetting something.

People on beta server properly also need to get to raid environments before people and blizzard can balance out buffs/debuffs fully.

Mews · 07/29/10, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by Lucrece

Probably an oversight on the crit buff.

Shamans and paladins are taking up the lion's share of important buffs, they should pay for it.

Shaman/paladin buffs are often exclusive. What this does is introduce a scenario where you can take a a wider variety of classes/specs and still have a powerful combination of buffs, but not over powered (WoA/WF being the best example). You can probably expect to see the same treatment with Hunters through pets.

You can also break down buffs/debuffs into 5 Categories;
1. Caster (CoE, WoA etc)
2. Melee (TSA, Sunder etc)
3. Defensive (TC, Demo shout etc)
4. Generic (Fort, Kings, Ferocious inspiration etc)
5. Utility (MS, CoT etc)

You can then break down the first two into Major and Minor;
Caster major; +10% spellpower, +8% damage, Replenishment
Caster minor; 5% crit buff and debuff, 5% haste
Melee major; Sunder, 10% AP, +20% MAS
Melee minor; +4% physical damage, +Agi/Str, +30% bleeds, +5% crit buff.

With exception of Demo locks (Who give no other buffs or are exclusive with CoE), you won't see a spec with 2 from the first category. The real losers in this raid buff make up are actually Mages, and Paladins/Shamans do have the monopoly on generic buffs.

You can lump Moonkins in with Assassination rogues and Unholy DKS - While we're a caster, we also bring Sunder as a buff. They both bring CoE, and yes I'm aware they do benefit from CoE more than we do from Sunder. Personally, I quite happy with how our buff repetoire has turned out - I always hated that I was often in 10mans because of my buffs and not just because I was reliable player.

Speaking of CoE - Ours is looking to be the weakest atm because we currently have no multi targetting mechanic - FoK, Pestilence and Locks have the possibility of getting Jinx(Tier 2 Afflcition). I hope that maybe they incorporate some sort of spreading mechanic through Wild mushroom/Fungal growth.

aceofsween · 07/29/10, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Lucrece

Shamans and paladins are taking up the lion's share of important buffs, they should pay for it.

I couldn't agree less.

They are simply making it easier to get the important buffs for 10 man raids. The whole idea of a hybrid tax is something that they have been gutting. It used to be that the hybrids had all the buffs to promote the pures. Now that everyone is getting useful and necessary buffs, everyone should be on a level playing field.

The whole idea of specializations makes the difference between a hybrid and pure pretty moot.

Edit: And this is something of an afterthought but they could easily roll Wild Mushroom into Earth and Moon to give Moonkins the ability to spread the debuff easily to multiple targets.

Lucrece · 07/29/10, 9:07 AM

Don't expect a playing field, ever. Their hybrid tax intent has been upheld in any recent blue post.

The gap between an arcane mage (or upper ilv fire mage) and a balance druid, I expect to stay similar as is. If they're changing the gap, I've read no posts stating that we'll be brought closer in response to spreading utility.

Our DPS wasn't penalized due to buffs, anyways. The hybrid tax was not about raid buffs, but about our ability to switch specs, and nothing on that front has changed.

Mjoedgaard · 07/29/10, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Lucrece

Don't expect a playing field, ever. Their hybrid tax intent has been upheld in any recent blue post.

The gap between an arcane mage (or upper ilv fire mage) and a balance druid, I expect to stay similar as is. If they're changing the gap, I've read no posts stating that we'll be brought closer in response to spreading utility.

Our DPS wasn't penalized due to buffs, anyways. The hybrid tax was not about raid buffs, but about our ability to switch specs, and nothing on that front has changed.

They have said more then fair share of times that they want people to take the player, not the class. This can only be done one way and that is to spread debuffs/buffs among multiple classes and then even the playing field.

In TBC you took a spriest for his buffs/debuffs and nothing else, VT, VE and misery was so you unique that you wanted atleast one spriest in KZ and 2 in SSC and up for.

iamrelevart · 07/29/10, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Maax

Just an idea I had about how they could make lunar and solar energy more of a resource and less of a timer counting down to Eclipse.

What if instead of a slider position, there was 2 unlinked energy pools (lunar and solar). Both pools can contain energy at the same time. Casting Arcane Damage spells generates x solar energy, and consumes y lunar energy (with x and y fixed costs per spell, higher damage spells costing/generating more etc.). Opposite for Nature Damage spells,

If there is enough lunar energy for the spells energy cost, it does extra damage equal to the current amount of energy (moonfire at 50 lunar energy gets 50% damage bonus).

Then the rotation would focus on keeping your spell casts equal between the schools to keep both energy pools as high as possible. Starsurge could generate energy in both pools. Mastery could then either increase the energy generated by spells or reduce the energy cost for the damage bonus.

With this system Eclipse would no longer be needed as a proc ability. But perhaps it could become an activated cool-down that would temporarily increase the maximum energy, and also cause the energy type generated by spells to swap (possibly also reduce or turn off energy consumption), so you could spam 1 school for higher bonus damage.

Run through a mock-up of this model and I think you'll see why it won't work very well. Go ahead and use the 20/13 energy generation and whatever model for consumption you'd like. It's a nice idea, but its logistics don't play out to our benefit.

Ogbar · 07/29/10, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mjoedgaard

They have said more then fair share of times that they want people to take the player, not the class. This can only be done one way and that is to spread debuffs/buffs among multiple classes and then even the playing field.

In TBC you took a spriest for his buffs/debuffs and nothing else, VT, VE and misery was so you unique that you wanted atleast one spriest in KZ and 2 in SSC and up for.

The hybrid tax and blizzards philosophy on it has been discussed very thoroughly by GC over the years so it it is a tad moot to restate, but I will:

Hybrids have the ability to respec (and now dual spec) to completely change their game play. Pures must reroll to do this. It is believed by blizzard that if pures and hybrids did exactly the same damage no one would ever play a pure because the ability to so easily change ones role and gameplay is desirable. Because of this hybrid dps is taxed to give palyers a reason to play pures over hybrids. This tax is also considered to be small enough that only two players of exactly equal gear and skill should reasonably consider it to be the reason they do not do equal damage. The vast majority of players can simply improve their skill at the game to make up for the hybrid tax.

Unless blizzard sees hard numbers at every tier of raiding that hybrids are left being left behind this will not change. These need to be hard numbers from several large sample sets and theories or anecdotal evidence are highly unlikely to affect change. Until you have such numbers, arguing against the hybrid tax is likely not worth it.

aceofsween · 07/29/10, 5:00 PM

Yes, but that's also the reason their goal of "bring the player, not the class" will never work out. I'm not entirely against the idea of a hybrid tax because when I think about it I don't see why a Mage or Warlock shouldn't be able to do more damage than a Balance Druid or Elemental Shaman. What bothers me though is that while the melee hybrids are very much on par with Rogues (to the extent that randomness and personal skill overwrite everything else), the difference between ranged hybrids and ranged pures seems to be significantly more noticeable. This will always be in a constant state of flux though.

But to get back on a more Cataclysm focused topic (slightly related though)...

The problem with buff homogenization without class parity is that when you can bring 1 Elemental Shaman to cover all the caster buffs, why would you bring a class with overlapping buffs when you can more easily find another class for those buffs and then stack the raid with classes that have a higher ceiling (i.e. non-hybrids)?

Someone made a nice chart of the current buff/debuff model here: Cataclysm Buffs and Debuffs.

This to me raises interesting questions. Elemental Shamans come with 6 of the 20 exclusive raid buffs, although I'll admit they can only use 4 (5? I forget which totem brings what) of their 6 at a time. For comparison, Balance Druids come with 4. What worries me though is the comparison between what Shamans have that we don't and what we have that Shamans don't. Of the buffs that are not shared between us (not counting Shaman's melee buffs), they have Bloodlust, MP5, and the 10% Spellpower buff where as we bring the armor debuff, the spell damage debuff, and +5% stats.

Now on to the real point I'm getting at. Bloodlust is only shared with one other class (5 other specs). The Mp5 buff is shared by 6 specds. 10% spellpower is only shared by 3 other specs. In comparison, the armor debuff is shared by by 3 other classes, or 8 other specs (although I thought Hunters also brought this?). The spell damage debuff is brought by 4 other specs, and the +5% stats is brought by 5 other specs. This means that not only do Shaman bring all of the appropriate buffs for casters, but of what we don't share, their other buffs are also shared by fewer classes/specs than the buffs that we bring.

I think there is a legitimate debate here and it's one that GC commonly seems to dismiss or misinterpret. It's not that Guilds only bring someone because they have X buff. It's that they want to only bring what the absolutely need because the lack of inter-class parity means their will always be a desire to stack the raid with the highest damage dealing classes. I had this discussion while looking for a guild with a GM recently. He didn't care so much about my ability or skill because he could find someone else of another class who could perform just as well, but because they were a Hunter/Mage/Lock, they had a higher ceiling and therefore were more desirable. Since my buffs were not needed (brought by other classes), why would he want to bring me?

Edit: Battle Rez was excluded from that list (which may or may not end up being shared with Warlocks), although as that same GM I mentioned before said about Battle Rez "I'd rather bring people who don't need a one." So I guess it's kinda moot.

Lucrece · 07/29/10, 6:21 PM

The whole "hybrids need to do lower damage because they can respec" is absurd, anyways.

When a person rolls a mage as opposed to a DK, warrior, bear druid, or paladin, it's because they only want to DPS. If they wanted to do several tasks, they would've rolled a hybrid. And then there are people who roll the classes who happen to be hybrids for pure aesthetic/lore reasons.

But, yeah, as I said. Elemental shamans will bring 2 major buffs that only one other class or spec can bring. Unless Demonology warlocks overtake their destruction/affliction counterparts, elemental shamans will be preferred while a warlock of a superior dps spec is brought.

What irks me, though, is that while hybrids have had to share utility, pures didn't spread unique tools. Summoning, tables, healthstones. Sowhat we end up is pures gaining further utility, while maintaining their own unique utility.

We'll just see what balancing decisions they make and how they'll balance DPS. I just don't see the pure>hybrid tax ever allowing for a model where the player and not the class is brought.

aceofsween · 07/30/10, 1:46 AM

Several of the changes they've made in the past build are puzzling at the least. They indeed have removed our Crit buff, replacing it with Haste on Moonkin Form probably to differentiate us from Ferals, who bring the crit buff. Starsurge now innately generates 10 Eclipse energy, but Lunar Guidance was reduced to 2/4/6 Energy. It's a net gain of 1 energy, but really I don't see the point. For 3 talents in talent starved WoW, that's a very meager ability but it's not as if they've given us anything else to spend it on. Unless they implement the smart-Energy gains we've been discussing, it really doesn't change anything. Heart of the Wild was dropped to 2/4/6% intellect.

Also, WoC is now Lunar Shower, though the functionality is the same.

klüger · 07/30/10, 5:03 AM

The complete balance related changes:

Druid Balance
Starsurge now also generates 10 Lunar or Solar energy.
Wrath of Cenarius is now named Lunar Shower.
Lunar Guidance now generates an additional 2/4/6 Lunar or Solar Energy. (Down from 5/10/15)
Moonkin Form now increases spell haste by 5%. (Old - Spell crit)
Genesis now increases the damage and healing done by your periodic spell damage and healing effects and by Swiftmend by 2/4/6%. (Up from 1/2/3%)
Nature's Grace now has a 100% proc rate for all ranks. increasing your spell casting speed by 5/10/15% for 3 sec.
Heart of the Wild now Increases your Intellect by 2/4/6%. (Down from 4/8/12%) In addition, while in Bear Form your Stamina is increased by 3/7/10% (Up from 2/4/6%) and while in Cat Form your attack power is increased by 3/7/10%. (Down from 2/4/6%)

Originally Posted by Mjoedgaard

In TBC you took a spriest for his buffs/debuffs and nothing else, VT, VE and misery was so you unique that you wanted atleast one spriest in KZ and 2 in SSC and up for.

No, in (early) tbc you took Sp's for their debuffs and their dps. They were overpowered and got their dps nerfed.

Lucrece · 07/30/10, 7:31 AM

And spriests right now do the highest single target DPS of the ranged hybrids.

What I found confusing is that they just nerfed Nature's Grace. They didn't change it; they simply devalued the talent. Same with Lunar Guidance.

Of course, Lunar Guidance will still be taken for the solar beam radius increase.

That leaves Starsurge at 16 energy, pretty meager still.

And the Moonkin changes is disconcerting. For one, I sure as hell hope they don't just leave the form as the "raid buff" form. Decreased amount of raid buffs at that.

Nevertheless, with Moonkin form, they've clearly established Shadowform as its analogue, and in the priest forums they got told that shadowform would give 5% haste. So I'm going to cross my fingers for Moonkin form getting the Shadowform treatment and actually becoming a DPS form.