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Old 07/30/10, 7:35 AM   #256
Sinx
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Doomhammer (EU)
It's a somewhat disturbing development with how the raid buffs/debuffs are shared atm, as virtually all raid buffs can now be covered by the so called "pure" dps classes (ie. the 4 classes with 3 dps talent trees + warrior, who for some reason has dps in a completely different league than other hybrids).

If we look at the caster buffs in a raid, we get the following:

5% crit: Covered by fury warrior (essentially the highest dps spec in the game atm, and I have a hard time seeing them get nerfed to "hybrid" dps anytime soon)
Burst haste (heroism/bloodlust): Mage (that's the other king of dps)
5% spell haste: Destruction Warlock (already stated by blizzard to be sub par atm, so expect a relative dps increase)
6% spell power: Mage
10% spell power: Fire mage and Demo lock
5% spell crit: Mage, Warlock
8% spell dmg taken: Muti rogue and warlock

So what we pretty much have here, is mage+warlock (which most likely will be the 2 caster classes with highest individual dps as they're the "pure" classes) causing a complete annihilation of moonkin, elemental shaman and shadow priest (replenishment can be provided by other means aswell) in raids, unless the 5% dps taxing system is removed.

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Old 07/30/10, 3:03 PM   #257
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by aceofsween View Post
In comparison, the armor debuff is shared by by 3 other classes, or 8 other specs (although I thought Hunters also brought this?).
Hunters do. That sheet and the list on MMO Champions do not include the hunter venoms or the pet debuffs. The 3 different hunters venoms provide (a hunter can only use one at a time, and an MM hunter gets a special effect when they use Chimera Shot):
Scorpid: armor debuff (also allows a MM to disarm the target)
Viper: spell cast speed debuff (also allows an MM to drain mana)
Widow: healing debuff (also allows an MM to self-heal)

The pet debuffs are still TBD.

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Old 07/30/10, 4:44 PM   #258
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Earth and Moon gives the 8% debuff with one point, in case anyone was misled by the MMO tooltip.

Starsurge gives "smart" energy now. However, the extra 6 energy from LG doesn't seem to be working.


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Old 07/30/10, 6:23 PM   #259
aceofsween
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
Earth and Moon gives the 8% debuff with one point, in case anyone was misled by the MMO tooltip.

Starsurge gives "smart" energy now. However, the extra 6 energy from LG doesn't seem to be working.
That's good news. It shows that the mechanic is in fact feasible (not that there was any doubt here) and that it is a nuisance they are aware of with the implementation of this new Eclipse mechanic. That actually is very exciting because for once it seems as though Eclipse may be a fluid, workable sort of mechanic instead of just one that's awkwardly shoved down our throats.

Although it's clear druids are still a little bit behind in terms of development with our talent trees, this is a very good sign. I can't help but look at our talents (with only 3 per tier and usually requiring more points than you'd think feasible) vs. some of the others, but this I'm sure will be addressed once they get to us.

One bit of curiosity though... is Earth and Moon a single 1 point talent or is it still 3 points? I'm working under the impression that the "and increases your spell damage by x%" part is just a hold over from when those sort of talents were useful. I suppose it's just more evidence that Druids aren't finished yet, if nothing else.

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Old 07/30/10, 6:31 PM   #260
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Right now on the beta it's 1 point for an 8% debuff and 2% personal damage.

I like the idea of having raid buff talents also give personal DPS gain. I was kind of annoyed when GC said recently that they didn't think that was necessary.

Yup, smart energy is nice. I think that even though the best use of Starsurge will probably be to just use it every cooldown, and that's usually a sign of an "uninteresting" spell, this will be better, since you have to react to the way it affects your Eclipse cycle every time.


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Old 07/30/10, 6:52 PM   #261
aceofsween
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
He also contradicted himself though when talking about Hunters, who were asking why they brought Replenishment when they no longer needed it, although the effect was that they would also bring another raid buff... That does put Moonkin Form in an awkward place though since it is still nothing more than a skin for a raid buff (even if we almost all adore our beloved chicken forms). I'm not even against the talents that increase our spell power (read: intellect) while in Moonkin Form. I just believe that this sort of effect should be innate to Moonkin Form itself.

Edit:

I meant to bring something else up as I was skimming the changes earlier. There was an interesting Fire Mage change that should give some insight into what we can expect out of Lunar Shower. Scorch will now be castable on the move while Molten Armor is active. That gives them a DPS ability they can use while moving similar to the intended design of our wayward Moonfire talent. Now, I'll admit I have no clue how much damage scorch does now, but Improved Scorch also reduces the mana cost of the spell to 0. I think it's safe to draw the parallels between the two abilities while in movement and we can safely assume that our damage from Moonfire will be reasonably the same as the damage provided by Scorch. I wouldn't go off the edge into theorycrafting around this correlation, but like I said it does provide some useful insight.

Last edited by aceofsween : 07/30/10 at 7:06 PM. Reason: Scorch Correlation to Lunar Shower

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Old 07/31/10, 10:34 AM   #262
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
Scorch is (untalented) a full-scale nuke. Its coefficient is cast_time/3.5, just like Wrath or Starfire. Its cast time is 1.5s, so they may run into haste cap issues (but MF has the same problem, perhaps worse with NG).

The implication is that a running Fire Mage will be able to sustain (even at zero mana) DPS at least equal to untalented Wrath spam (which by Hamlet's cata spreadsheet is about 65% of talented Wrath-spam, outside of Eclipse). Scorch benefits from other talents, so this would go up.

MF DD spam-dps (including MF DoT dps, since DoT's won't get clipped) currently show at about 60% of talented non-eclipse Wrath spam on the same spreadsheet. (Full Lunar Shower and BotG).

A moving rotation of IS+MF*9 has about 85% the DPS of Wrath-spam (assuming someone else maintains the E&M debuff on the target). Including Typhoon (with 2/2 GW) in the rotation would increase that number slightly (<1% increase).

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Old 07/31/10, 4:25 PM   #263
aceofsween
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
We can't really theorycraft any of this stuff until all of the details are sorted out. For one thing, our current DPS is certainly not indicative of where it will be when all things are said and done. If the Beta WrathCalcs is accurate, we're standing at about 60% of our DPS compared to current models. And while Moonfire is about equal (it's actually slightly weaker on the Beta probably due to differences in Glyphs), Insect Swarm is quite a bit stronger (+3500 DPeT). At the same time, both Wrath and Starfire are significantly weaker, which means our DoTs by comparison make up a larger percentage of our damage on the Beta. This will likely not remain the same. Additionally, Wrath and Starfire are going to increasingly do larger portions of our damage as our Mastery rating increases, but Moonfire will not. And who knows what Scorch is going to look like by the time they're done with Mages. Scorch also gets bonuses from the Fire Mage mastery, so it's damage will scale in a way that Moonfire's does not. Those little differences are part of what made me hesitate when commenting on this in the first place. There's just going to be inherent differences between the two. About all we can say is that Scorch puts Fire mages "here" (where "here" is the damage they do on the move). From there, we can reasonably expect Druids to be somewhere near "there" but without anything to really give any substance to this, we can't quantify anything really. It's just insight, no more or less.

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Old 07/31/10, 7:01 PM   #264
Lucrece
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Whisperwind
Can't really put Scorch in comparision with Moonfire, since mages with the exception of Fire have no DoT's whatsoever to cushion their instant casts with. If they have instant casts, naturally theirs will have to be stronger to make up for the lack of DoT's.

Fire is where it gets tricky, though, since we don't know the magnitude of Flashburn (their mastery). They're beefing up Scorch to give it a place in their rotation besides "use it to get the crit debuff up and then spam something else".

Any word on Starfire's cast time being reduced to match Fireball? They hinted at reducing cast times for long nukes. Soul Fire got its cast time drastically cut for Warlocks, and Destruction reduces it further. Fireball got the reduction treatment, and I expect the same for Pyroblast since it's the keystone ability for Fire upon specialization.

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Old 08/07/10, 6:01 PM   #265
Balancemoon
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Legion (EU)
On the Moonfire damage, I would not say anything till the final numbers are in, for all we know they could boost the damage of the spell at 85 to make Lunar Shower worth it, and if not they could simply change it so the DD portion is doubled on each stack or they implement Lissana's suggestion that has the DD damage bit naturally increased substantially and the dot tick small but stackable to 3 times. Who knows

Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
Right now on the beta it's 1 point for an 8% debuff and 2% personal damage.

I like the idea of having raid buff talents also give personal DPS gain. I was kind of annoyed when GC said recently that they didn't think that was necessary.

Yup, smart energy is nice. I think that even though the best use of Starsurge will probably be to just use it every cooldown, and that's usually a sign of an "uninteresting" spell, this will be better, since you have to react to the way it affects your Eclipse cycle every time.
It's sad that comment, and tbh, this is the main problem with much of balance, spells that you just cast when off cooldown or refresh when down, no real intelligent decision making necessary to further maximize damage. Effectively reducing the skill factor necessary to master the class. As it is, the difference between an unskilled moonkin and a skilled one would be small.

1. Take Eclipse, to get it going you spam one spell. It procs you spam another. Very predictable, flat. Wanna shake things up a bit? How about Euphoria adds a clause that allows MF and IS to sometimes switch the type of eclipse power gained by the wrath/starfire and increasing it by 50% on the next cast only, and also only when an eclipse is not active. So effectively, at random moments in spamming one nuke to proc an eclipse, your starfire will instead give lunar power and your wrath solar power with an extra 50% on the next cast only, so you'd sorta have to pay attention for those moments and you'd reduce your eclipse down time by switching to the opposite spell.

This immediately works some unpredictability, and rewards the more skillful players.

2. Still on Eclipse. Adopt the strategy that a balance druid will aim to maximize the uptime of eclipse (make it last as long as possible) and minimize the downtime too, point 1 made some skill involved in minimizing the downtime, lets look at ways we can intelligently maximize the uptime.

If SS casting will help eclipse uptime last longer, why don't we give the balance druid interesting ways during an eclipse to knock seconds of the cooldown of starsurge via clever casting. So the more intelligently you cast, the shorter your starsurge cooldown will be = more SS = higher uptime = more dps. You could off course cast the opposite nuke, but that's the dumb way to extend the uptime because the opposite nuke is not boosted under eclipse. Give a smarter option:

How? I'm a big fan of introducing interaction between dots and nuke, I'm also a big fan of eclipse doing exactly that as it provides the perfect vehicle for this with its Lunar eclipse tied to arcane and solar eclipse tied to nature. Lunar eclipse should allow the interaction between arcane spells dots and nukes, cooldowns, and solar eclipse nature spells. We know that arcane and nature for balance are too similar atm, they behave identically too under either eclipse, a clear way to distinguish them is to allow them to interact in interesting but different ways under their respective eclipses. I repeat, eclipse is the perfect mechanic to bake that into as you have the arcane portion and the nature portion. Let the interactions be different and you immediately give an interesting dimension,a nd also raise the level of skill needed to maximize the class.

I am a big fan of decision making, and rewarding more skillful players wiht higher dps to. I am also quite fine with the average moonkin (and hybrid caster) doing somewhat less dps than the average mage/warlock, but the master balance druid (and hybrid caster) should be neck and neck with the master mage/lock. When this happens the QQ on pure v hybrid dps will melt awya, as most players are average, pures will be happy that they do higher dps, however amongst the top players, it would be hardly distinguishable. WHen average moonkins complain, they'll alwyas be top players with the stats to prove that they just need to master. ANd the pures won't complain b/c their average skilled players are doing better. For it to work the class mechanics must create the necessary skill gap.

Concept? Good balance druids will be switching nukes to minimize downtime of eclipse as point 1 stated, they'd also be maximizing eclipse uptime by making full use of the spell interactions during an eclipse that shorten the cooldown of starsurge. Take this an rough armchair example:
Lunar Focus:
During a lunar eclipse your moonfire, starfall, starfire and starsurge interact to cause more damage as follows:
Starfire adds an additional application of moonfire dot portion up to 3 times, each application resets the dot duration
Casting moonfire with 3 stacks of DoTs amplifies the damage DD portion by 3 and reduces the cooldowon of starsurge by 2 secs per application.
While your starfall spell is active, your next moonfire will affect all enemies affected by the starshower and reduce the cooldown of Starsurge by 1 secs for every starfire cast on a target affected by moonfire and starfall.
Starsurge a target under lunar eclipse has a chance to extend the duration of Starfall by up to 5secs.

N.B. Making use of the interactions will lower the cooldown of Starsurge will in turn grant you more SS to use, doing more damage and extending the eclipse uptime, rewarding skill players.
Also note that there are a lot of chance to do x or y, which demonstrates the unpredictiability of the arcane, whereas the nature version is a lot more steady.

Solar Focus.
Under a solar eclipse:
Wrath nukes will cause Insect Swarm on a target to stack to a maximum of 3 and reduce the cooldown of starsurge for each application
Starsurge will grant the remaining damage on the swarms to be given instantly and reduce its cooldown by 5s on a crit
Detonating a wild mushroom will spread the insects to all affected by the shroom explosion & will cause starfall damage to splash to close by targets for x% of the stars damage.
Under a solar eclipse, FoN gains an extra 3 secs duration for every IS crit and every crit will reduce the amount of down
They are just examples of possible interactions you can have under each eclipse, presented as talents that offer interesting options.

Moonkin form can also be something that at least requires some amount of skill. Rather than just a passive 5%haste, let the balance druid have the Moon aura regardless of form, let fuoror do something non-damage boosting to moonkin form, and voila you have a moonkin form that can do other things. Something that the player needs to make a decision, either a cooldown like ToL form, or alternatively you could make those interactions mentioned above only available if you switch to moonkin form during an eclipse. I'm a bigger fan of the cooldown though, because at least that way, finally normal balance spells will actually do something extra.

As an example going to moonkin form could change defensive spells to work better than caster form. This is to make up for not being able to heal, no reason why thorns, roots and cyclone shouldn't be cast better always in moonkin form as it can't heal, you could add perks for typhoon, FF, solar beam and wild mushroom too. On the cooldown bit though, the offensive spells cast better and their are many things you could do. Off the top of my head: a) Hurricane doesn't require channelling, FoN & Starfall both reset cooldowns and last twice as long if cast during the empower. IS will always crit & starfire will hit 2 additional nearby targets.

This way again rewards skillful players who will have to learn the perks of using the form as it modifies spells and will have to choose when best to blow the empower cooldown. Decision making rewarded. Which doesn't happen at all currently.

Last edited by Balancemoon : 08/07/10 at 6:07 PM. Reason: spelling & grammar

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Old 08/10/10, 1:59 AM   #266
Videl
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Cenarius
I don't think that system in particular would work, but obviously it would be great to see more options to reward the skillful player with better dps and I would also be happy to see average dps below that of pures if top dps could reasonably be considered competitive (defining competitive as equal on average, not just close enough to not be embarassing). As we probably all realize, with buffs being pretty well spread around the ability to be one of a few spots a raid might have that swings between two roles is worth giving up less and less in dps terms.

Because your system penalizes as much for missing a spell switch as it gives for completing one, it would be breaking even at 50% successful switches. There are a whole chunk of procs that would occur too close to the end of the current cast to reasonably allow for a switch with lag and button mashing to queue the spell and even excellent reaction times. Then there's a whole chunk of really easy to catch procs that are negated by those ones you couldn't possibly have caught. That leaves only that middle bunch of procs that you could potentially catch for what is really not that impressive a bonus to your eclipse uptime. The system would scale negatively with haste since it would increase the size of the unavoidable miss chunk as well as the number of successes needed to offset it. I think it would be very high stress for small effects on dps.

If you meant dot casts rather than ticks those just don't come up often enough to be meaningful at a reasonably low proc rate and at a very high proc rate (which it would take to make the effect noticable) all it would do is separate the decent+ players from the truly terrible and that's a gap they're trying to reduce if anything (since you could just assume a proc rather than watch for it).

I would say over the course of the current expansion with the need to watch for eclipse procs and the ticking penalty for reacting anything short of instantly along with the conditional nature of our dot casts we've had it atleast as hard as any other caster and harder than many to perform at our best. Eclipse is getting easier but they're adding in another cooldown to watch that may or may not require strategic timing. Even if it averages out to making balance a little easier to optimize than before while some other classes are made harder, we could still easily end up close enough overall that it's reasonable to consider us equally difficult to play for dps balancing without adding any extra tricks to druids.


You make a fair point about scorch on the move lucrece and that may cover a lot of the situations we actually encounter. In the case of fire mages they've always had one really great instant and in situations where you have a little window to plan out your move you can add in a single dot and another instant, so they're not so far behind us before scorch as you might think.
I'm curious from someone who is actively playing with it right now, if you have to move and you moonfire then IS while moving, will Lunar Shower be fully stacked for your next moonfire?
Obviously I have no experience with Cata raiding, but conceptually I just have trouble seeing the average effect of moonfire spam over the 2-4 seconds I expect to move based on my current experience being worthwhile, given that the effect of fully stacked moonfire spam can't be too close to standing dps and the Lunar Shower buff isn't fully stacked until near the end of the move.

P.S. @ Lucrece
You don't even mention the best of the utility the pures get for being pure. Tables and healthstones are neat, but they've all got unmatched mobility and survival cooldowns that pretty reliably turn out to be madly OP on a couple fights per expansion (such as locks, as well as some clever rogues and hunters jumping back onto the LK platform after they're dropped). Rogues and I think maybe mages are getting tools that play with LoS rules for cataclysm. What are the odds there isn't a single fight in the next expansion that is tons easier with a smoke bomb to hide in? In my mind that's what they've got that offsets our ability to respec to a different role.

Last edited by Videl : 08/10/10 at 2:16 AM.

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Old 08/10/10, 5:30 PM   #267
Balancemoon
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Legion (EU)
Oh Videl you're quite right for bringing up those points. However do note the example I gave was just a rough 'armchair' example, to illustrate doing something to make activating eclipse more interesting. It does involve some amount of proc watching, which personally i don't like all that much, but proc watching if its well placed be fun even, and at the very least better than mindless spam. I do think about the issue of it actually punishing failure to switch nukes, but didnt' want to flesh it out as the entire intent was not to present a well designed mechanic, that's the devs job, it was just to give a rough example. Ways you could fine tune that for e.g. was to make the proc only invert one of the nukes. It could be the nuke you just cast, or something else to ensure failure to switch doesn't punish you, but switching does reward you.

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Old 08/10/10, 11:23 PM   #268
Mjoedgaard
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Balancemoon View Post
Oh Videl you're quite right for bringing up those points. However do note the example I gave was just a rough 'armchair' example, to illustrate doing something to make activating eclipse more interesting. It does involve some amount of proc watching, which personally i don't like all that much, but proc watching if its well placed be fun even, and at the very least better than mindless spam. I do think about the issue of it actually punishing failure to switch nukes, but didnt' want to flesh it out as the entire intent was not to present a well designed mechanic, that's the devs job, it was just to give a rough example. Ways you could fine tune that for e.g. was to make the proc only invert one of the nukes. It could be the nuke you just cast, or something else to ensure failure to switch doesn't punish you, but switching does reward you.
Failing to switch will always be dps lose and therefor punish you. If blizzard implent something like this, they will balance around 100% switch, else we will see nerfs because the good players can reach potential not wanted by Blizzard.

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Old 08/11/10, 11:36 AM   #269
Balancemoon
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Legion (EU)
ah, the failure to switch punishing dps further was with respect to the armchair design idea of dots switching the eclipse power of nukes. I was just reminding Videl that it was a raw concept to illustrate making the spam to achieve eclipse (i.e. just one nuke only) and the spam during an eclipse ( the other nuke only) more interesting and less predictable. If it were to be taken seriously, which lets face it our specific ideas never are, then it would need some work , some polish ofc to iron out some of the chinks that Videl pointed out. However there is no point exploring such things further, blizzard will surely come up with their own ways of making achieving eclipse and casting during it less predictable/monotonous/boring than the current iteration presents. IF they did decide to use something similar to what i suggested, they'd obviously implement it in a much better way at the end.

For e.g. a way to overcome VIidel's astuate observation with the mechanic would simply be to let the dot rather than inverse the eclipse power of both nukes, cause the two nukes to generate the same eclipse power instead, and reward casting the nuke that was inverted with 50% more eclipse power. That way failure to switch wouldn't double punish the bad player as Videl picked up, however switching would reward the good player with a lower eclipse downtime.. Next cast issues, the other issue he pointed out, and lag are easily overcome, we've seen them do this with other proc mechanics, what you do is make this inverse proc from the dot last up to 5 secs but only affects the next cast of the opposite nuke. So it would work like this.

e.g. You start spamming wrath and gaining lunar power (upsetting the balance), if your dots are up, this talent will proc, if you're heading towards a lunar eclipse and it procs, it simply means that if you cast starfire within the next 5secs, it will instead generate lunar power, and about 50% more eclipse power than it would normal give. afterwards casting SF again will give you its normal solar power. The same thing if you were working towards a solar eclipse it means at the proc wrath if cast within 5secs will generate solar power at 50% more than normal. Thus encouraging you to break up the mindless spam.

It's just one way of introducing some rng element to make the spamming less predictable, and to keep you reacting. Ofc how this all works depends on the model of eclipse finally used, if casting starfire during a lunar eclipse is suppose to take you to the verge of a solar eclipse and there is literally no eclipse down time, then, this wouldn't work, you'd have to find another means of doing so.

Ideally, my eclipse model will have two portions, a downtime and an uptime, and you are to employ strategies and interactions that some new exciting talents will give, (like lunar focus, solar focus and this Euphoria dot inversion in that armchair example above ) to lengthen the uptime of eclipse and reduce the down time.

Which means normally casting, before picking up those interaction talents,, there will always be an eclipse down time and an eclipse up time that can be extended, with a little room to wiggle about and not be punished by movement. All in all, a master balance druid having now picked up the interaction talents and fully using thme will be skilled at maximizing up time and minimizing downtime, and he will do this a lot better than an average balance druid and thus yield more dps.

As eclipse power generated does not scale with the damage of your wraths/starfire/SS, the amount of up time and down time will not scale with gear at all. So you don't have a situation where cleverly using your spells to maximize your uptime and reduce your downtime is meaningless because you're in super gear. Gear will cause your spell themselves to do more damage anyway in and off themselves. The flat damage of eclipse will be boosted sufficiently by mastery too. The bonus damage is what your skill increases, if you master all your rotations, sequences, react quickly, know your spec well, you should be achieving eclipse faster than poorer players and keeping it up longer, thus doing even more damage, sufficient enough for playstyle to be tweaked to account for anything from an extra 15-40% dps over poorer players in similar gear.

Skill should matter
The spec should be fun and interesting. Total predictability is boring
Eclipse should have more layers to it - i love the idea of hacing arane spell interact differently under lunar from nature spells under solar, the interactions only working during an eclipse really define the moment and demand a more skillful playstyle when they're up, but if the player isn't that skillful, then at least he still gets the flat damage boost during that.
I like that we are seeking the balance between nature and arcane, and i'd like each of these schools to have a prominent theme, could be as simple as arcane is more chancy i.e. chaotic, and nature more sustainable and steady, reflected by the arcane spell interactions involving lots of chance to do x or y based on crit, and nature more like if x is present, then y does more damage, and it builds up with z thrown into the fray etc.

I love the new eclipse model, it overcame the bad RNG from the old model that had too much of a damage swing based on whether eclipse was up or dont. The new model you can control when your eclipse procs, and you have enough leg room not to be penealized with movement, that's great... now it's a much better model to throw in a bit of r'n'g in the casting of the nukes, and some interactions between the spells to make it more interesting. We damaned blizzard when they made the old eclipse model to rng, seems ironic that we are asking now for a little bit more unpredictability in the new model, But i can hope you see that the new model is a far better model to cope with unpredictability, and that a little bit of it here and there really spice up the whole gameplay.

See very interesting beta forum topic here:
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> [Feedback] Balance Druid 12694

and Moonkin Repository Topic here:
The Moonkin Repository &bull; View topic - 3 things about balance 12694

These themes are really been discussed at their core there. On a lighter note, judging by the classes GC is responding too on the forum, i am not expecting any balance druid changes this week or next, he tends to talk about the classes whom have just received changes and those they are working on at the moment, and whatever they are working on today is seen 1 week later on the beta patch. So, I think we'll just get minor tweaks as a result of balancing elsewhere.

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Old 08/11/10, 11:57 AM   #270
♦ Carebare
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Guys, please keep in mind that floating a new idea is fine, but consuming a thread over something unimplemented/undiscussed by the devs is pointless and really detracts from the whole discussion of actual Cataclysm stuff. I'm not trying to stifle conversation, but at the same time, we need to keep the thread generally on topic.

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