Balance Raiding in Cataclysm - Page 25

Erdluf · 09/19/10, 3:57 PM

Of course if our DoTs aren't even benefiting from Haste yet, they may be behind-the-times in other mechanics as well.

I understand that our HoTs are working with Haste. Perhaps someone can check what happens to a ticking Rejuv when you get a SP proc (or you equip a weapon).

I'd be particularly interested in what happens to DoTs/HoTs when your haste changes after the spell has been cast. Perhaps someone could cast Lifebloom and count ticks, and then cast Lb+IS (for Nature's Torrent) and see if the tick count changes (or look very closely at the combat log timing).

• Hamlet · 09/19/10, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Starfox

MF now also ticks every 2s, and IS/MF are still NOT effected by haste, so that's how they shipped around that issue. /yawn
:<
Eclipse is now a timeless buff
SS always gives solar energy, and on a crit it gives 8 lunar energy from a ghost euphoria talent Euphoria - Spell - World of Warcraft
Wrath seems to sometimes switch to be giving 13/14 solar, 26/27 with euphoria procs, no clue where this one additional comes from.
W/SF don't give any eclipse energy at all if the get are under eclipse, so you have no choice but to switch

I put some more similar observations here and below:
Cataclysm Balance Theorycraft and Spreadsheet Thread

I'll try to check on LB, although I doubt anything has changed as far as DoT's retaining the properties from when they were cast.

e: yup:
LB alone: 13 ticks.
IS-LB: 15 ticks.
LB-IS: 13 ticks.

With NT up for all but the first GCD of the LB, it would have been at least 14 ticks if the haste did anything. 27.84% haste, no other buffs. Same result with Rejuv.

Starfox · 09/19/10, 4:14 PM

Also MF tooltip is also quite wrong:
IS: 21258 /18s, ticks for 2361
MF: X + 5020 / 18s, ticks for 1183
Ticks for almost exactly half of what IS does, but tooltip indicates that the dot should only deal ~1/4th of what IS does

• Hamlet · 09/19/10, 4:21 PM

I'm sure the tooltip still reflects 6 base ticks instead of 9. That doesn't account for the whole discrepancy though--did you accidentally use an Eclipsed IS when you tested that? IS shouldn't be ticking for more than twice what MF does, more like 5/3 times or so.

Where are you seeing these tooltips? Mine in-game are all generic.

Starfox · 09/19/10, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I'm sure the tooltip still reflects 6 base ticks instead of 9. That doesn't account for the whole discrepancy though--did you accidentally use an Eclipsed IS when you tested that? IS shouldn't be ticking for more than twice what MF does, more like 5/3 times or so.

Where are you seeing these tooltips? Mine in-game are all generic.

• Hamlet · 09/20/10, 1:38 AM

Got another video up:
YouTube - Balance Druid DPS in Cataclysm Beta ver. 12984
Notes in the description.

aceofsween · 09/20/10, 3:55 AM

So... wait.

We're to expect that Moonfire does only 6400 damage total, but Insect Swarm is going to do 21,258? I'm having a hard time buying into that.

• Hamlet · 09/20/10, 4:04 AM

No, he's saying the tooltip is wrong. It's showing around half of the correct DoT damage.

Ereshmilor · 09/20/10, 7:27 AM

With the change to Euphoria, we have no need to get crit at all, or did i miss something?
This is nice, because we can focus on haste, which is the best rating, but i see a problem when eg t12 comes with a fancy proc on crit bonus.

Arythorn · 09/20/10, 11:19 AM

The net of the changes from 12942 to 12984 for me has been significant dps loss on a rotation. I was holding right around 12k target dummy dps in 12942 and dot refreshes and other cooldowns such as starfall were lining up very well with the cycle. Starsurge acting smart and extending an Eclipse was a good part of that. Longer dots in 12984 actually make for awkward refreshes that don't line up with Eclipse cycle very well. I'm still trying to figure out what I can tweak to make it better (unfortunately Broxigar just went offline) but atm, 12942 was a much better build. Goes to show, what looks good on paper . . .

• Hamlet · 09/20/10, 11:27 AM

I wouldn't go that far. First of all, it's only an issue because of Starsurge. Assuming that's unintended or cam be reverted, everything else is fine. I do agree the rotation is a bit bumpy without smart Starsurge.
It's still really odd that it would be a net DPS loss, given the addition of Nature's Torment and Shooting Stars, and the buffed Moonfire.

Arythorn · 09/20/10, 11:33 AM

Yeah, my mistake -- I didn't retrain Astral Leather and Mastery with the new character copy for this build . . . /sigh.

For whatever reason, Sunfire disappeared with the Broxigar reboot, but even without being able to refresh Moonfire/Sunfire during Solar, I'm above 12k atm. More to come later. If they can get Sunfire functioning again, I'll build a vid of what it looks like.

EDIT: Well I was above 12k for a lucky string of RNG. Without Sunfire working, currently barely maintaining 11k sustained. Was just shy of 12k sustained in last build.

Really the two main things that have gotten strange are Insect Swarm refresh and glyphed Starfall not lining up very welll with Lunar any longer. I figured this was a combination of longer dots, Starsurge not acting smart, and Nature's Torment moving us through cycles more quickly. When things don't line up well, it can cause issues, so that threw me off the fact that I was an idiot and didn't retrain. Still feels awkward -- really hope they fix Starsurge to be smart (rather hope that this is an unintended change).

• Hamlet · 09/20/10, 11:36 AM

That reminds me--I've heard that training Total Eclipse is what's breaking Sunfire. Maybe I'll recopy if its not fixed soon, but for now I just made a video and there's nothing terribly mysterious it. People say it overwrites Moonfire. I've seen screenshots; it's basically an orange Moonfire.

Arythorn · 09/20/10, 12:20 PM

It is basically orange moonfire. If moonfire is already up when you proc Solar, the existing Moonfire stays in place. If you cast again while Solar is up, that new cast will be Sunfire. Given that you can carry the new longer Moonfire that was cast during Lunar right into the Solar proc, I wait to refresh until it drops.

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I've heard that training Total Eclipse is what's breaking Sunfire.

I think this is it. I blamed it on the server restart but, I also realized my Mastery / Astral Leather mistake after the reboot and trained those. No Sunfire now. Also, just saw another moon next to me cast it so . . . /bleh. Hopefully they sort that out -- I'd like to get a look at the sustained rotation numbers with Mastery/Astral Leather and Sunfire all functioning together.

Royalite · 09/20/10, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ereshmilor

Blues said that all DPS specs wouldnt have to worry about Mana, except Arcane Mages. But that are just numbers which can be fixed easily (thats why balancing is so easy these days, or isnt it, GC?) or it's just a problem of not having hero gear.

I found this to be rather interesting...I missed the blue post so I don't know exactly what was said.

But I had been reading various sources (blogs, wow forums, mmo, etc) and what I had gotten out of my reading was that moonkins were being designed around using innervate on themselves during an encounter. Given I am not on Beta, so I am relying on testers for confirmation or correction.

The reasoning behind designing moonkins to use their own innverates was so that guild won't stack moonkins to support mana drained healers.
The talent changes to dream state seems to support this design goal as well as the weakening of the feral innverate.

I guess I am not completely sold on the idea that moonkins would be a DPS spec that doesn't have to worry about mana.