Balance Raiding in Cataclysm - Page 34

gannonjf · 10/01/10, 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by Lucrece

I've been lobbying over in beta for all balance spells to apply E&M. Having to apply it before DoT'ing a target goes counter to the nature of Nature's Grace, which is to jumpstart the rotation toward eclipse.

Also, Wild Mushrooms this patch received a huge nerf. The damage is more or less halved. 9k per detonation down to 4800 per detonation. I don't find any niche for them at the moment. The loss in damage doesn't give them any use in PvE, and they're a worthless ghetto frost trap with a 3 yard detonation range in PvP.

Hopefully in the following builds we'll see bringing back the detonate range to 10 yards and more talents synergizing with the spell. They said talents would play with it, and right now it's a single talent with a bland, weak frost trap effect sans the entrapment proc.

It's our 85 spell, so I would encourage more feedback on the PvE and PvP fronts to give this spell some meaningful utility if it won't have the big damage. The beta thread for Balance has been pretty scarcely populated.

In a single mage thread you see 95 pages running. The balance threads combined (and because some people insist on making new threads instead of posting on existing ones) at best amount to 15 pages. With that kind of neglect on the part of the balance druid community when it comes to feedback, don't be surprised if the class doesn't receive the attention it deserves. It's a two way street and we've GOT to communicate with the developers, not just ask them to telepathically decipher our feedback.

P.S. Starsurge, Wild Mushrooms, and Typhoon still do not benefit from Moonfury's crit modifiers. It should provide the crit bonus to just balance spells instead of specific ones, similar to the passive bonuses of the other offensive casters.

Can you throw in a link to the Druid section of the beta forums? Every time I go to find it, it's a serious PITA.

Erdluf · 10/01/10, 8:29 AM

Confirmed: Wild Mushrooms coefficient in the game files is cut in half to .464. No other Druid coefficient changes in 13117.

Astrylian reported (Bear Cata thread) that WM had a 0.5s cast and a 0.5s GCD, and detonate was off the GCD. I'll assume that is correct and targeting takes an additional ~0.2s per mushroom.

You can place and detonate three 'shrooms in about the same time as a Wrath cast. The detonate would have a combined coefficient almost twice as high as Wrath's (1.392 vs. .714), enough to make up for 150% crits.

Putting all that together, along with the fact that it doesn't consume solar energy during Eclipse, it would be a small DPS increase on a single PvE target, as long as it isn't moving. However, the mana cost is hight (33% vs. 14%), it is a lot of trouble, and the gain is small.

P.S. Starsurge, Wild Mushrooms, and Typhoon still do not benefit from Moonfury's crit modifiers. It should provide the crit bonus to just balance spells instead of specific ones, similar to the passive bonuses of the other offensive casters.

Moonfury: At 6000 SP, during Eclipse, an instant-cast Starsurge crit hits for ~40k. I strongly suspect that if SS benefited from Moonfury, that number would not go up. Instead, non-crits (and SS average damage) would be nerfed. When I hit 85 my crit% is going to be terrible. Why should I lobby for a major PvP and PvE nerf?

History lesson: In early LK, Moonkin argued that the Moonkin's SP should help Thorns cast on others. It got implemented. Within a couple of weeks the Thorns coefficient got nerfed, and self-cast-with-Brambles Thorns were weaker than self-cast-without-Brambles had been a few weeks before.

Arythorn · 10/01/10, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Lucrece

I've been lobbying over in beta for all balance spells to apply E&M. Having to apply it before DoT'ing a target goes counter to the nature of Nature's Grace, which is to jumpstart the rotation toward eclipse.

My understanding is that, as E&M is a debuff on a target creature, ensuing ticks of dots will benefit from that even if it wasn't up at the time of their casting. So, it's not quite as big of an issue as it might first appear. I don't disagree it would be nice to have any balance spell apply it -- or say maybe Hurricane apply it for AoE targetting -- but for single target, it's not a huge issue.

EDIT: In other news, sadly the feedback I'm getting from Beta build 13117 (not on PTR yet) is that Sunfire is still six ticks, 3 seconds apart. I'll hope they just haven't fixed it yet. If not, it's very possible I'm skipping that talent point. Yes we would lose MF spam during Solar but the downward pressure that a non-hasted 6 tick Sunfire puts on turret dps (or the unnatural things it makes you do to refresh MF just before Eclipse) makes it more than unwieldy. On a brighter note (literally), Starsurge got a spiffy new graphic that apparently looks far more like we are sending a large bright star at someone. I'll verify the feedback once the build gets pushed to PTR (or someone else in beta can).

Lucrece · 10/01/10, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Confirmed: Wild Mushrooms coefficient in the game files is cut in half to .464. No other Druid coefficient changes in 13117.

Astrylian reported (Bear Cata thread) that WM had a 0.5s cast and a 0.5s GCD, and detonate was off the GCD. I'll assume that is correct and targeting takes an additional ~0.2s per mushroom.

You can place and detonate three 'shrooms in about the same time as a Wrath cast. The detonate would have a combined coefficient almost twice as high as Wrath's (1.392 vs. .714), enough to make up for 150% crits.

Putting all that together, along with the fact that it doesn't consume solar energy during Eclipse, it would be a small DPS increase on a single PvE target, as long as it isn't moving. However, the mana cost is hight (33% vs. 14%), it is a lot of trouble, and the gain is small.

Moonfury: At 6000 SP, during Eclipse, an instant-cast Starsurge crit hits for ~40k. I strongly suspect that if SS benefited from Moonfury, that number would not go up. Instead, non-crits (and SS average damage) would be nerfed. When I hit 85 my crit% is going to be terrible. Why should I lobby for a major PvP and PvE nerf?

History lesson: In early LK, Moonkin argued that the Moonkin's SP should help Thorns cast on others. It got implemented. Within a couple of weeks the Thorns coefficient got nerfed, and self-cast-with-Brambles Thorns were weaker than self-cast-without-Brambles had been a few weeks before.

Because Conflagrate is hitting for similar numbers, as well as Lava Burst and Kill Command. Earthshock at 9 charges of Fulmination as well. All of which have much lesser cooldowns.

Crit % at 85 in heroic blues is ~20%. Those high Starsurge crits are hardly going to happen very frequently.

I want crit % bonus to apply to all my spells because, even if it's not a big deal in PvE, in PvP it is when a spell like Lava Burst, 7 seconds lesser cooldown, lesser cast time, and more average resets via Lava Surge crits as hard as Starsurge in a PvP burst sequence environment, except it crits all the time (whereas Starsurge does very blue moon).

Erdluf · 10/01/10, 11:24 AM

I believe that Blizz does not want it to be possible for three players in blue gear to 100%->0% another player in blue gear with a single DD spell each (even with lucky RNG), especially if the DD has an instant or short cast time.

That means we won't see any spells with crits much bigger than the current SS. I think Lave Burst, Conflagrate, and Pyroblast are all roughly in that range. Fulmination may be a bit larger. If so, it is likely to be nerfed a little. Kill Command was just nerfed (I'm not sure what the new KC numbers are).

A 3-stack of Wild Mushrooms exceeded that value before the most recent build. It just got nerfed.

Blizz sees that PvP burst is out of control at 80 on the PTR, and has to be worried that it will be a major problem at 85.

If I'm right, applying Moonfury to SS won't increase its crit damage. Instead it will lower its non-crit damage, and as you pointed out, 80% of our casts will be non-crits.

aceofsween · 10/01/10, 12:14 PM

My problem with the Moonfury issue is the scaling and the inconsistency of it not effecting some of our core spells. It's kinda bizarre to think that your "iconic" ability isn't affected by the passive that is intended to separate DPS specs from Healing specs, which is the reason the 200% crit modifier exists. Also considering that other passives effect all spells for a particular spec, such as Elemental Fury, it's simply inconsistent.

Cross-class comparisons are usually murky waters to tread into, but it would seem to me that there are some significant scaling issues with Starsurge not having the 200% crit mod. I'm not sure if it's something that we will be able to achieve with the current gear scaling, but that little bit of inconsistency is there.

Case in point though... They can make the average damage for a 200% crit mod the same as with a 150% crit mod at 20% crit rating. Then when we have a 40% crit rating, the average damage will be higher, much higher. Yes, I know we aren't going to have a 40% crit rate when Cataclysm launches, however we will probably have one at the end of the expansion, if BC scaling is any evidence of that. This is an issue that we should address now, immediately, rather than later.

We're talking about a dropping the average damage of a non-crit Starsurge to 91.666% of what it is currently in order to make the gain several times over down the line.

• Adoriele · 10/01/10, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

We're talking about a dropping the average damage of a non-crit Starsurge to 91.666% of what it is currently in order to make the gain several times over down the line.

No, that's not likely to be the trade you're making. If Blizzard does what you're suggesting (hold average overall damage constant), SS crit damage will go up by 33%, turning 40k crits into 53k crits. That's too much for a player in blues, even if it's only a 20% chance. Instead, assume that they'll keep average crit damage constant at the 40k mentioned earlier. Giving 200% crits will reduce non-crit damage by 25%, and overall damage by 19%, assuming 20% crit rate.

That said, I agree with your premise that SS should have 200% crits to keep it in line with all of our other spells and to keep it scaling consistently. Just pointing out that in the short term it would probably lead to a larger nerf than you portrayed.

aceofsween · 10/01/10, 2:20 PM

The trade off here though is that those shots aren't coming very often and to be honest damage across the board is a little out of control. I'm a bit surprised that we're seeing such high numbers. Even with all the buffs to armor and stamina, a 40k hit is going to take out a good 40% to 50% of someone's health pool. I believe I saw mages walking around with just over 80k health, so I'm assuming tanks are breaching the 100k mark. This just doesn't seem to jive well with their strategy for tuning down bursty damage. I think it's far more likely (and almost more of a necessity) that we'll see damage come down across the board (or health pools go up even more), which opens up the room to correct this issue without turning into a nerf.

But the fact of the matter is either way there is a scaling issue here that can't be ignored and it's better to address it now rather than 2 tiers from now when we're beginning to wonder why Starsurge isn't putting out the damage it should be.

diryus · 10/01/10, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

On a brighter note (literally), Starsurge got a spiffy new graphic that apparently looks far more like we are sending a large bright star at someone. I'll verify the feedback once the build gets pushed to PTR (or someone else in beta can).

YouTube - New Starsurge Animation - Build 13117

Lucrece · 10/01/10, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

I believe that Blizz does not want it to be possible for three players in blue gear to 100%->0% another player in blue gear with a single DD spell each (even with lucky RNG), especially if the DD has an instant or short cast time.

That means we won't see any spells with crits much bigger than the current SS. I think Lave Burst, Conflagrate, and Pyroblast are all roughly in that range. Fulmination may be a bit larger. If so, it is likely to be nerfed a little. Kill Command was just nerfed (I'm not sure what the new KC numbers are).

A 3-stack of Wild Mushrooms exceeded that value before the most recent build. It just got nerfed.

Blizz sees that PvP burst is out of control at 80 on the PTR, and has to be worried that it will be a major problem at 85.

If I'm right, applying Moonfury to SS won't increase its crit damage. Instead it will lower its non-crit damage, and as you pointed out, 80% of our casts will be non-crits.

SS crits at 200% bonus will hardly be imbalanced on PvP blues. My destruction Warlock 100-0's people in one Demon Soul:Imp>Immolate>Shadowfury>Conflagrate>Chaosbolt> Instant Soulfire> Shadow Burn.

Both Chaosbolt and Hand of Gul'dan are critting particularly harder than Starsurge because Warlocks are not missing their crit bonus.

Starsurge should hit harder than those two considering its longer cooldown. In fact, even with the removal of knockdown Starsurge's a weaker effect since it has no absorption piercing or a 3 sec root>3sec stun aura.

I'm not seeing the 40k crits in current PvP, either. Noneclipsed I'm seeing 27k crits and With eclipse my best so far has been 35k.

To give reference, in one Deep Freeze a mage can pump 4x 14000 Ice Lance crits. That DF happens pretty often and is not dependent on RNG (thanks to Shatter) while it also stuns a target for 5 seconds.

My Shadow Priest in Dark Archangel can pump 2xMindspike>Instant Mindblast> SW

for ~50k worth of damage, DoT's nothwithstanding.

Point is, other classes can still burst better than a balance druid, even if 200% crit to Starsurge were given. Additionally, resilience is not properly implemented. The "PvP" gear they give us with resilience gives a whopping 5% damage reduction total. In live my druid has 30% damage reduction from resilience.

Resilience will balance these numbers out because it's obvious it will be reassessed so that it stays the best PvP stat and doesn't lose to PvE hero raiding gear due to losing the -crit mechanic.

• Hamlet · 10/01/10, 8:01 PM

--Eclipse Arrow is not resetting on leaving combat. It resets on respec only (not even on logout).
--Changed the fact that Eclipse no longer ends on a SS cast.
--Don't think Roots is being affected by Moonfury. Didn't have time to test it fully though.

No other interesting notes really. Confirm Sunfire ticking on 3s and not affected by haste.

Arythorn · 10/01/10, 8:38 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

--Eclipse Arrow is not resetting on leaving combat. It resets on respec only (not even on logout).

What I have seen on this is as follows:

If you log out and are within an Eclipse still, the arrow will retain it's directional heading but it's energy will be reset to zero when you log back in. If you log out in a non-Eclipse state, the arrow will have neutral direction (i.e. point both ways) and it's energy will be at zero. I don't see it as a huge issue -- I guess we could call having a directional heading at login a bug. It's not extremely hard to work around but it would be nice if it were fixed.

As to the directional arrow not resetting once you are in game and have combat history -- I would say given that decay has been removed, preserving Eclipse energy and direction is working as intended. That said, while removing decay and preserving Eclipse state and energy is certainly desirable in some cases (solo-leveling, back-to-back trash packs and the like), it may not be desirable to be in an "awkward" Eclipse energy and directional state after trash pulls end and a boss encounter is about to start.

We could work around this by proactively managing the Eclipse bar during trash and stopping casts that will move it or change directional arrows once it's where we want for the boss encounter. However, this is a bit messy to say the least. We could certainly use it to our advantage I suppose and have the energy bar pre-set to an optimal location pre-boss pull as well . . . but it does seem a bit unwieldy to be worrying getting your Eclipse state in an ideal position while working trash. The only other solution I can think of outside of this sort of pre-boss Eclipse bar manipulation to sort the directional issue for trash/bosses once you have combat history is:

Create a new Balance spell called something like "Yin and Yang" -- out of combat casting restriction, 5 second channel, zero mana cost -- something similar to switching specs without the mana drain -- that basically sets you to zero energy, neutral direction. In this way, if you are in a bad Eclipse position prior to a boss, at least you could set it fairly neutral before beginning.

I somewhat doubt they would do this -- sure would be nice to have the option.

Ranghar · 10/02/10, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

That said, while removing decay and preserving Eclipse state and energy is certainly desirable in some cases (solo-leveling, back-to-back trash packs and the like), it may not be desirable to be in an "awkward" Eclipse energy and directional state after trash pulls end and a boss encounter is about to start.

I can't imagine any position that is worse than neutral. What benefit would give ability to reset it manually?

Arythorn · 10/02/10, 11:24 AM

Many positions are worse than Neutral heading into a boss fight or a trash pack. On a single target boss fight, I can tell you for a fact that if I have to start a 5 minute fight with my bar say at 60 energy and heading toward a Solar Eclipse next, I will do far worse than if it was at 0 energy Neutral and I could head toward Lunar. This is especially true when you factor in trinket procs which just about always go off and start cycling within the first few seconds of a fight, Starfall cooldowns, etc.). Starting point is very significant.

Also, lets say a fight begins with add waves and my bar is heading the opposite direction at 60 energy again but this time heading toward Lunar. Having to single target spam adds 40 points to Lunar and then 200 energy back to Solar before being able to Hurricane under Solar is far worse than being able to do a much quicker 100 energy single-target from Neutral to Solar.

In between trash packs (some packs may be single target and CC, some may be AoE) and before boss fights I could see more than a few cases where Neutral would be better than wherever you happened to leave off from the last fight. Now that said, the reason I make it an out-of-combat channel is because in-combat this could be very abused to simply reset directional heading and go toward the same Eclipse over and over. Either way, I don't necessarily think they would implement it, but having the ability to get to zero and neutral before pulls would be useful.

aceofsween · 10/02/10, 12:33 PM

Actually, I'm not convinced that any position is worse than any other. It's just a steady cycle of DPS. In the case of AoE situations on bosses, sure, the added bonus of Eclipse on Hurricane/WM is nice, but really I'm not sure it's that important. You're still going to generate more damage with Hurricane in the right situation than you will with AoE. That's just the way the ball bounces sometimes.

And in trash packs, is anyone really worried about their DPS?