Balance Raiding in Cataclysm - Page 36

Arythorn · 10/04/10, 3:41 PM

All the testing I've done indicates Insect Swarm is hands down the strongest and Wrath as a second. IF (I stress IF), we go live with Sunfire still not adjusting to haste, Starfire will be a sure 3rd as I'd rather extend a hasted MF through Solar than cast a non-hasted Sunfire. If they fix Sunfire, then it's a toss up between Moonfire glyph and Starsurge as the third for my money.

beromar · 10/04/10, 4:51 PM

From my testing, Moonfire glyph outweighs Starsurge, at least for single target fights with minimal movement. The saving grace for Starsurge glyph is that it allows you line up Starfall with almost every Lunar eclipse without much delay.

I'm curious what findings other people have come up with in regards to casting Starsurge while not in an eclipse (assuming no Starsurge glyph). Do you delay casting it until you reach the next ecipse or do you cast it immediately? I've been casting it immediately. My reasoning is that it has a higher energy/cast time ratio than both Starfire and Wrath which will push you further into the next eclipse; thus getting your next NG proc. Also, every cast you delay it is another chance for Shooting Stars to proc, screwing you out of another 15 energy. My understanding with the current model, you want to go back and forth between both eclipses as fast as possible to increase the uptime of NG and give yourself more hasted dots.

• Hamlet · 10/04/10, 4:54 PM

I've been seeing Starsurge on cooldown as being optimal.

Kluian · 10/04/10, 4:54 PM

Does the moonfire glyph work on Sunfire?

Also I'm fairly certain others have confirmed that you want to use SS as soon as you can. Even though it may move you out of an eclipse state faster, it helps you get to the next eclipse state quicker which will reset your NG and cause a higher uptime of the 15% haste.

Arythorn · 10/04/10, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by beromar

From my testing, Moonfire glyph outweighs Starsurge, at least for single target fights with minimal movement. The saving grace for Starsurge glyph is that it allows you line up Starfall with almost every Lunar eclipse without much delay.

My testing of the two glyphs actually is showing the opposite currently (i.e. Starsurge is more beneficial to me than Moonfire though the two are extremely close -- I'd say within a margin of error for sure). That said, if/when Sunfire starts scaling correctly, I'd expect MF glyph to move ahead.

Originally Posted by Kluian

Does the moonfire glyph work on Sunfire?

Confirmed the glyph does work on Sunfire as well. Probelm is it's value from Sunfire ticks is very minimal atm due to the fact that the spell isn't working with haste currently.

Originally Posted by beromar

I'm curious what findings other people have come up with in regards to casting Starsurge while not in an eclipse (assuming no Starsurge glyph). Do you delay casting it until you reach the next ecipse or do you cast it immediately? I've been casting it immediately. My reasoning is that it has a higher energy/cast time ratio than both Starfire and Wrath which will push you further into the next eclipse; thus getting your next NG proc. Also, every cast you delay it is another chance for Shooting Stars to proc, screwing you out of another 15 energy. My understanding with the current model, you want to go back and forth between both eclipses as fast as possible to increase the uptime of NG and give yourself more hasted dots.

If you have glyphed Starsurge, it makes sense to use it on cooldown and as soon as Shooting Stars procs (whether or not you are in an Eclipse phase or not). I will delay Starsurge for two reasons. 1) I'm one or two seconds away from proc'ing an Eclipse -- Starsurge hits a good bit harder within an Eclipse than outside of one and the short delay is worth it. 2) Starfall is about to come off cooldown in 2 or 3 seconds. In that situation, it's better to get the time reduction after the Starfall rather than before it.

Yijiao · 10/06/10, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

If you have glyphed Starsurge, it makes sense to use it on cooldown and as soon as Shooting Stars procs (whether or not you are in an Eclipse phase or not). I will delay Starsurge for two reasons. 1) I'm one or two seconds away from proc'ing an Eclipse -- Starsurge hits a good bit harder within an Eclipse than outside of one and the short delay is worth it. 2) Starfall is about to come off cooldown in 2 or 3 seconds. In that situation, it's better to get the time reduction after the Starfall rather than before it.

Actually, since the reduction doesn't happen until the starsurge lands, you can cast it before the starfall and still get the benefit if the timers are really close. I found that quite interesting when I was doing it on the PTR, so, you can get away with doing the two back-to-back with starsurge first.

Arythorn · 10/06/10, 5:53 PM

Sunfire still not scaling with haste in the PTR build 13156 that was released today. /sigh

Kluian · 10/06/10, 7:14 PM

Does it still tick every 3 seconds instead of 2?

Arythorn · 10/06/10, 8:11 PM

I have seen some reports of people stating that, at least at some point in time, it was ticking every 2 but still not affected by haste. Personally, I have never seen anything beyond 6 ticks, 3 seconds apart each -- which is what I'm seeing in today's push as well.

EDIT: This next bit is speculation but I wonder if it is ticking 6 times, every 2 seconds for people that did not train Genesis and have a 12 second dot. I have always had Genesis trained -- that could be the difference in the reports. It's also possible that it has 4 ticks, each 3 seconds apart with the base spell, not sure. Either way, 6 ticks in both scenario indicates it's not scaling with haste for sure (and perhaps not scaling with talents either).

Orkanvind · 10/07/10, 3:49 AM

Isn´t this a "hidden" balance between Lunar and Solar eclipse as Solar would be to powerfull since it buffs both Sunfire and IS DoT but Lunar only buff Moonfire?

Sunfire perhaps makes the same damage as Moonfire without Lunar eclipse? DD is the same on both during Eclipse?

beromar · 10/07/10, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by Orkanvind

Isn´t this a "hidden" balance between Lunar and Solar eclipse as Solar would be to powerfull since it buffs both Sunfire and IS DoT but Lunar only buff Moonfire?

Sunfire perhaps makes the same damage as Moonfire without Lunar eclipse? DD is the same on both during Eclipse?

I think the concern is that without Sunfire scaling with haste, it is doing less overall damage than normal Moonfire, so we are in essence spending a talent point on a dps loss.

I did 2 tests on a target dummy. One completely naked (0 haste), and one fully geared (1,063 haste). In both tests, I cast a regular Moonfire during a non-eclipse, as well as a Sunfire during a Solar eclipse.

Naked Test:

Sunfire: 6 ticks, 1629 damage, 1 crit
Moonfire: 9 ticks, 1646 damage, 1 crit

Normal Gear Test:

Sunfire: 6 ticks, 16,611 damage, 4 crits
Moonfire: 13 ticks, 24,144 damage, 7 crits

Right now it is more dps to talent out of Sunfire. The only drawback is you also lose Lunar Shower since Sunfire is a pre-requisite, so for heavy movement fights you may still need it. Also note that, with Moonfire providing more overall ticks than Sunfire, you have a higher chance of getting Shooting Star procs which will increase the gap even further. Hopefully this is, in fact, acknowledged as a bug and is fixed.

klüger · 10/07/10, 10:11 AM

Isn't also moonfire a very poor dot compared with IS?
I've all but taken it out of my rotation due to its poor performance vs IS

Arythorn · 10/07/10, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by klüger

Isn't also moonfire a very poor dot compared with IS?
I've all but taken it out of my rotation due to its poor performance vs IS

Compared to IS, yes. Compared to other uses of that same GCD, no. This is true on the merits of the spell's own damage but even more true when you consider increased chance to proc Shooting Stars, impact trinket uptime, etc.

EDIT: For the sake of emphasis, just logged into PTR and cast Moonfire in 3 different states (made sure trinket procs didn't affect numbers):

1) Non-eclipse state -- Moonfire did 27,310 dmg for an instant cast. Wrath at 1.434 sec cast time hit for 5,095 dmg, crit for 10,702.

2) Lunar eclipse state -- Moonfire did 34,175 dmg for an instant cast. Starfire at 2.151 sec cast time hit for 10,185 dmg and crit for 19,587 dmg

3) Solar eclipse state -- Sunfire (even bugged) did 15,618 dmg for an instant cast. Wrath at 1.434 sec cast time hit for 7,004 dmg and crit for 14,115 dmg.

Those aren't large sample sizes by any stretch but I think you get the idea. It is a very good use of a GCD to refresh Moonfire / Sunfire.

Lucrece · 10/07/10, 10:54 AM

Moonfire is not poor. It hits as hard as SW:P with a 2 sec interval instead of every 3 seconds. Try affliction and shadow DoT's outside of UA and VT, and Moonfire is outright competitive with the other bread and butter like SWP and Corruption, and it trumps Bane of Agony per tick damage and Devouring Plague handily.

Our DoT's got an immense fix this expansion and neglecting to put up Moonfire will even gimp your damage by lowering Shooting Stars procs.

hec · 10/07/10, 5:10 PM

i was wondering how big a role mana plays in the current build.
according to few pages ago the problem of "oomkins" seemed resolved in one of the previous builds.

today a guildie played around a bit with a pre-made lvl 85 moonkin on the PTR (mainly nuking the dummies) and told me he had huge issues with mana.

granted, he does not play a moonkin on live and i can not be sure he knows the in and outs of playing a moonkin.
yet according to him he chose all the regen talents and glyphed innervate and was running out of mana in under a minute.

has anybody made similar observations?