[WOTLK 4.0] Cats - Page 12

• Melthu · 09/10/10, 8:08 AM

Blizzard has said before that they like set bonuses that change your rotation, so in that context the bonus makes sense. It's also not surprising that the T11 bonuses will be a little more boring since they'll be the first tier. T7 wasn't very exciting either, but T10 was great, and I'd expect T11 through T13/14/XX to follow a similar path.

axol · 09/10/10, 9:28 AM

So are we just expected to Mangle three times at the start of a fight and then Mangle again in 30 seconds instead of a minute? Seems like an odd rotation but should be fun to learn and apply.

semedori · 09/10/10, 11:28 AM

Garrote and Rupture are not affected by haste. I am not aware of any melee dots that are.

We want haste to apply to as close to 100% of your damage as possible. For casters it always applied to cast time spells. Now it also applies to dots. For melee, it improves your auto attack damage but also grants you more resources, therefore improving your special attacks as well.
source

Haste effecting cat energy regeneration is certainly welcome, but I was looking forward to hasted bleeds earning additional ticks. I hope they reverse this decision and balance around it. I don't see how haste gives additional resources to a bear beyond what it already does in wotlk, but perhaps that's the point.

Maeltne · 09/10/10, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hoofhearted

Gems and gear with armor pen will instead have critrating. If the item already has crit rating it will be haste rating. Armor penetration still exists in the game but only as talents. You can't stack it.

And if it has ArP, Haste, and Crit - then Crit get's buffed by 50%.

See:

Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker - Item - World of Warcraft
Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker - Item - World of Warcraft

Note: The tool tip doesn't properly display for the cata wowhead.

• Melthu · 09/13/10, 6:07 AM

Current tanking threat values, courtesy of Astrylian. Bear form has a threat modifier of 2.0735, which applies to all listed sources of threat unless otherwise noted.

Ability	Threat
+3 Rage (on Dodge)	5 per Rage gained (No modifier)
+5 Rage (on Crit)	5 per Rage gained (No modifier)
Enrage Initial	5 per Rage gained (No modifier)
Enrage Tick	5 per Rage gained
Primal Madness (Enrage or Berserk)	5 per Rage gained (No modifier)
iLotP Heal	0
Clearcast	10
Furor	0
Demoralizing Roar	12
Skull Bash	0
Bash	96
Challenging Roar	98
Barkskin	58
Survival Instincts	20
Berserk	60
Melee	Damage done
Fury Swipes	Damage done
Thorns	Damage done
Wild Mushroom	Damage done (Modifier applies only if in bear form for detonation)
Faerie Fire	Damage done + 774 (Regardless of number of stacks applied)
Mangle	Damage done
Avalanche	Damage done
Lacerate Initial	[Damage done / 2] + 1149 + AP*0.022885
Lacerate Tick	Damage done / 2
Maul	Damage done + 30
Pulverize	Damage done
Thrash Initial	Damage done * 1.5
Thrash Tick	Damage done * 1.5
Swipe	Damage done * 1.5

-Abakus- · 09/13/10, 6:28 PM

So since there aren't any posts on Bear rotations since they reimplemented the Mangle (Bear) cooldown, I decided I would try to throw one together.

I worked using the following guidelines
1. use Mange/FFF on cooldown every cooldown
2. Only use Pulverize to refresh the 6% crit buff
3. 2/2 Feral Agression and 2/2 Endless Carnage are assumed
4. FFF is used on the pull

Rather than timing each ability out, I think it'll be easier if we look at it from a quasi-wotlk prot pally rotation perspective (96969). While we don't have three 9-second cooldowns, we have two 6 second ones. Assuming a 1.5 GCD (even for FFF), this means we can fit 3 GCDs between every Mangle and every FFF.

So the rotation looks like the following:

Part 1:
Mangle (Empty GCD) (Empty GCD) Feral Faerie Fire repeat

Keep repeating this, and fill the Empty GCDs with part 2

Part 2:
Pulverize Lacerate Lacerate Lacerate Swipe* repeat

Use part 2 to fill in the empty GCDs in part 1 in order.

This gives us the following five 6-second sequences:
1. Mangle Pulverize Lacerate Feral Faerie Fire then...
2. Mangle Lacerate Lacerate Feral Faerie Fire then...
3. Mangle Swipe Pulverize Feral Faerie Fire then...
4. Mangle Lacerate Lacerate Feral Faerie Fire then...
5. Mangle Lacerate Swipe Feral Faerie Fire repeat

*Swipe can be enchanged for a Demoralizing Roar every second Swipe if no one else is keeping it up.

Since Maul is off the GCD, it only makes sense to omit it from a rotation and simply use it as rage allows.

On the Pull
On the pull, it's not optimal to use a Pulverize without any Lacerate stacks. Thus, on the pull I imagine we would start with the 5th pattern, replacing the underlined Swipe and Feral Faerie Fire for 2 Lacerates. Note that this only applies to mobs on the pull, (or after flight phases, etc.).

Notes:
-My intention was to figure out a pattern for Bear Tanking that had some kind of logical pattern while not leaving empty GCDs. It's very possible that this is not an optimal rotation.
-It's also very possible that it might be better to forego using FFF or even Mangle every CD if you need to stack up lacerates quicker.
-At level 81+, Thrash should replace Swipe as filler for single targets.
-If I am wrong, I would love to hear about it (seriously)

kalbear · 09/13/10, 8:46 PM

I'm not sure that FFF is worth doing as a threat move under normal circumstances. While it costs no rage, it is no longer the slam dunk single target threat source that it once was since it does not immediately scale with weapon damage (as of right now). Since both swipe and thrash are on a CD, I suspect it'd be better to interleave them instead of doing FF and only do FF when needing to refresh the debuff.

Also, I assume you'll want to throw in a demo roar in there somewhere as well.

-Abakus- · 09/13/10, 9:36 PM

On the PTR, which is all I have access to currently, FFF is very similar to Mangle in terms of threat. Feral Aggression only puts up 1 stack from what I can see, so if it begins working properly and applies 3 stacks per cast, then it's also possible we'll have applications worth of threat. If this is not the case, and Swipe does prove to be superior for single target threat, then all that needs to be done is simply swap the positions of the two abilities.

Also, I had mentioned beside the asterisk in my original post that every other Swipe could be substituted for a Demo Roar, giving a refresh every 30 seconds. Fits perfectly.

semedori · 09/14/10, 7:02 PM

At current (Sept 14) PTR values I found a couple interesting things.
First Feral Faerie Fire is the only ability that has a 150% critical effect, where all others have a 200% critical effect.
Second Swipe, given its 50% threat bonus, is the highest threat to rage and highest threat to gcd ability currently.

All coefficients and gear scaling and buff scaling will and should change everything later, but just as a reference for now:

My stats unbuffed, other than Bear Form and spec, on PTR are: 734.8 DPS, 4612 AP, 2.23 speed, 12.14% haste, +11.84% hit, 43.36% crit, 35 expertise.

I would order the abilities in order of Threat per GCD at:
swipe > pulverize+3 >mangle > feral faerie fire > pulverize+0

Ordering for Threat per Rage:
swipe > maul > mangle > pulverize+3 > pulverize+0

(+3 and +0 implying how many lacerates are consumed to increase pulverize damage)

-Abakus- · 09/15/10, 1:49 PM

The most important thing you omitted was Lacerate, which I'm fairly certain wins out over everything on your list.

In regards to your observations, I'm wondering if you were wearing your 2t10 set bonus. Since it increases swipe damage by 20% (and thus increases Swipe threat by 20% as well), it would probably skew the threat values you found.

As for why Feral Faerie Fire crits for 150% rather than 200%, it's because it's considered a Nature spell, rather than a physical attack. Currently, Feral Aggression on the PTR does not allow 3 stacks of FFF to be applied at once. There's a similar mechanic in game already with the Glyph of Devastate. This allows 2 stacks of the Sunder Armor debuff to be applied by a single application. The glyph will also cause the threat from both stacks to be applied, rather than just 1 stack. Thus, I believe it's a fair assumption that FFF will likely apply the threat of all 3 stacks simultaneously.

This is why I prioritized FFF over swipe in my sample rotation (FA being bugged and 2t10 bonus). Also, since you'll want to let Lacerate tick as much as possible, it would probably yield more overall threat to prioritize Mangle over Pulverize+3 (despite it being less threat per GCD), unless your Pulverize buff is about to drop off.

If FFF only applies threat from 1 stack even with FA, then it might be possible that Trash (or Swipe, under 81) will be preferable.

semedori · 09/15/10, 8:39 PM

Good catch on the 2t10 bonus, it certainly scews the numbers. Feral Aggression not working correctly is unfortunate for testing purposes, if it applies triple threat when finally working it would probably be too much threat at current values for no rage cost.

As for Lacerate and Pulverize I can only say they continue to be troublesome to me when considered together.

I like Lacerate, it boosts Maul damage 20% via the Rend and Tear talent (though thrash will as well). Lacerate is a threat source that is somewhat fire and forget while you operate other sources, as well as a residual threat source when your are stunned/feared/whatever and unable to remain on target.

I want to like Pulverize, but it's not making it easy. 6% crit is attractive but has some high costs associated to it. First consuming a 3-stack of Lacerate incurs an additional 2 GCD cost later on to restore the 3-stack, when compared to simply refreshing Lacerate's duration. There is the lost threat from the Lacerate ticks that would have continued ticking from the time of Pulverize to when you restore the 3-stack debuff. Finally, the up-time of the 6% crit buff will likely ending up rather low without sacrificing far too much threat from other abilities.

Some rather complicated math would be needed to consider if Pulverize is worth pressing, but that's not worth doing before coefficients and scaling get more fine tuned, at this point I highly doubt it is worth using in a normal rotation.

One other note, I do dislike that Lacerate (and all feral dots) do not scale with haste and consider this short sighted by developers, leaving the potential for haste to continuously devalue at higher gear levels where we 'essentially' have infinite rage/energy to hit all our cooldowns/debuffs every cooldown/duration and fill all our GCDs, haste will only buff white damage and nothing else at such a limit.

-Abakus- · 09/18/10, 6:52 PM

Feral

* Lacerate base damage increased by 200%, DoT damage reduced by 200%.
* Flight Form now costs 8% of base mana, down from 13% of base mana.
* Swipe (Bear) now costs 30 Rage, up from 15 Rage.
* Skull Bash now has a 13 yards range, down from 18 yards.
* Aquatic Form now costs 8% of base mana, down from 13% of base mana.
* Travel Form now costs 8% of base mana, down from 13% of base mana.
* Mangle (Bear) now deals 230% normal damage, up from 115%. additional damage increased by 100% (eg. from 333 to 667)
* Berserk now causes your Mangle (Bear) to have no cooldown and has an additional effect - Your Lacerate periodic damage has a 30% chance to refresh the cooldown of your Mangle (Bear) ability and make it cost no rage.
* Feast of Flesh is now named Blood in the Water.
* Shapeshifter is gone.

Looks like Pulverize+3 refreshes won't be so annoying, since Lacerate's threat has shifted away from dot damage. Also, Swipe's rage cost increase is likely to limit its use in single-target situations. Mangle is once again our go-to ability. The Berserk change for Mangle CD seems to be an oversight from when Mangle had no cooldown. The secondary effect though adds a little bit more of a dynamic edge to our rotation (pretty much Sword and Board for bears). Overall, there's nothing really to complain about here.

The only thing I'd like to mention is that since Lacerate dot ticks can refresh Mangle's CD, it's still only a good idea to use Pulverize to refresh the crit buff, and so that part of our rotation doesn't change much. We won't have a nice simple pattern to follow because of it though, but that's probably a good thing.

semedori · 09/19/10, 5:29 PM

Bear form combat does feel a lot better now.
With Lacerate being hugely front loaded damaged (roughly 2/3 on application, the dot is now only on par with the Fury Swipe talent output.) As Abakus said: It now feels like a good idea to Pulverize every 15 seconds to roll the buff.
Between watching for Berserk procs for a free Mangle and trying to capitalize omen procs for free Mauls, there's enough dynamic play to separate the skilled players from the button mashers.
The triple stack in one shot FFF is working now, applies threat and damage of just one application.

Off the top of my head a priority list could be:
(0. Burn extra rage on Maul at any point when over say 60 rage)
1. Mangle on Berserk procs
2. Consume a 3-stack Lacerate with Pulverize to refresh crit buff
3. Mangle on cooldown
4. Maul on Omen procs
5. Stack Lacerate to 3 (and at least one stack early after consuming, to buff Maul and chance to proc Berserk)
6. Reapply Demo Roar if needed and wanted
7. When low rage FFF is no-rage threat filler
8. If somehow your have spare GCD and Rage you can spam up Lacerate for good effect.

Gurrshael · 09/20/10, 4:33 AM

I did few quick tests on haste energy regeneration and it seems that the regeneration rate is directly proportional to haste % (i.e. 20% haste gives 20% boost to regeneration). I am looking forward to see how that plays out with decent haste & haste raid buffs.

Can anyone with a 85 beta druid share how much haste % they have?

Additionally, couple of notes that weren't mentioned here:
- Shred's cost is back to 40 energy
- You finally can use Savage Roar to consume combo points from dead enemies and you don't even have to target them.

Btw, for anyone writing addons or fiddling with spells: the feral spells' ids were mainly changed to the spellId of the Rank 1 (as no ranks exist on beta) and also abilities that put debuff on target (mangle, rake, demo roar, savage roar, ...) have the same spellId for both the ability and the debuff.

Aradiel · 09/20/10, 9:39 AM

Can someone tell me how much rip is doing damage on Beta. People are complaining that it's doing abysmal damage on PTR. The formula for Rip in wowhead and wowtal cata pages would suggest it beign horrible.