[WOTLK 4.0] Cats - Page 15

Astrylian · 09/29/10, 3:55 AM

For testing things like that, unequip your weapon. That gives you a damage range of 1, so all attacks that are based on weapon damage will do static amounts of damage (well, variation of 1-2 anyway).

Nich · 09/29/10, 9:37 AM

Ofcourse, that makes sense. Ta.

Looks like SR doesn't affect it, but FFF and TF do.

Extremely small sample size, unequipped weapon + trinkets and rings with proc effects.

(nothing)        (with fff)       (fff, tf)        (sr, fff)     (sr, fff, tf)
1135               1190              2143            1191           2143
 501               1191               946            1191
1136                525              2144            1191
 501               1191                               528
1135                526                              1191
                   1191                
                    525

Must have been mistaken earlier, and saw FS change values based on agi/ap procs.

Koril · 09/30/10, 11:09 AM

I have read that tiger fury was affecting rip and rake, for the complete duration of the dot. Did someone tested that?
If it does, I am not sure it is intended anyway. But if it is, it could clearly mess up our rotation, since Tiger Fury has a 27/30 sec. cd (I guess the glyph will be mandatory), rake lasts 15 sec. (talented with endless carnage) and rip lasts 22 sec. (it seems glyph of shred is still there, but glyph of rip changed). So depending on the numbers, it could be better to wait our tiger fury before reapplying rip or rake (what seems clearly unpleasant by the way, so I hope I am wrong).

Hoofhearted · 09/30/10, 11:48 AM

Tiger's fury increases physical damage done by a % right now so it affecting rip and rake is as it should be. Not sure if they plan on leaving tiger's fury at 89% but at the moment most of our damage is applied in that 6 second window. You can keep rake at full uptime and refresh it during tiger's fury. Rip is probably best to do 1 every 27 seconds.

Koril · 09/30/10, 12:17 PM

I was quite impatient so I had written a few math in case TF does mess up our rotation. :p

I assume a lot of thing :
- we manage to time savage roar well and have a lot of energy so you will have 5CP available for a FB or Rip at each tiger fury. (Maybe I am a bit exagerating on our new energy regeneration?)
- we can't use more than one finisher on each TF, wich is true
- our dump-energy is 3 shred + 1 FB, wich is approximatively true (no matter if one shred is replaced by a rake and you shred later, when building SR)
- we have an absolutely perfect timing on gcd, and never fail at refreshing anything, wich is an utopia

Rip :

On a 22*27 second run starting by TF + Rip at second 0, ending with TF coming up and Rip falling off at second 22*27. R being rip damage and FB being ferocious bite damage, we can choose between :

- option A : apply rip with the first TF, then reapply rip when it drops and use others TF to hit ferocious bite. 5 rips will be in the TF duration.
Damage: 1.88 * 5 * R + 23 R + 17 FB * 1.88

- option B : apply rip at each TF, let it drop 5 sec each 27 sec, and bite with the extras points.
Damage: 1.88*22 R + 23 FB - wasted energy
It consumes 30 energy more than A if you bite at 35 energy, 240 if you bite at 70 energy, to know the "wasted energy" value.

- option C : reapply rip each time it drops, clip it when TF comes up, and loose a lot of bites (ugly, but still optimal if R >> FB). You have 2 out of 11 tick of each unbuffed rip.
Damage: 22*1.88 R + 22*2/11 R + 1 FB + saved energy
You save 80 energy if you bite at 35, and 640 if you bite at 70.

Rake :

Same options, replacing 22 by 15, FB by shred and rip by rake (if you don't rake during TF, you have one more shred) on a 15*27 sec run, and S being shred damage :

A (3 rake in the TF duration): 1.88 * 3 *Ra + 26 Ra + 12 S * 1.88 damage
B: 1.88 * 15 * Ra + 25 S, wasted 65 energy
C (not so ugly there, you only clip 3 sec, that means 1 tick) : 1.88*15*Ra + 15*4/5*Ra + 10 S, saved 10 energy

Now, the price of extra energy is 3 S + FB per 155 energy if we bite at 35, 3 S + FB per 190 energy if we bite at 70. This is clearly an approximation.

If I'm wrong somewhere, please tell me!

I bet that C is clearly not optimal for rip, and I bet C wins for rake, but if someone who managed to get a pre made or a geared cat can give us an idea of R, FB and S, I would be curious to know who's the winner! (wowhead information for damages doesn't seem correct)

golle · 09/30/10, 6:50 PM

From what I have heard Dots update every tick. This ultimately mean we don't have to wait for TF to come off CD since the 15% buff will automatically be added to the dots ticks for its duration. When the TF buff falls off, so will the 15%+ dmg we got from it.

Hoofhearted · 09/30/10, 7:04 PM

Aradiel · 10/01/10, 2:53 AM

Originally Posted by golle

From what I have heard Dots update every tick. This ultimately mean we don't have to wait for TF to come off CD since the 15% buff will automatically be added to the dots ticks for its duration. When the TF buff falls off, so will the 15%+ dmg we got from it.

I have a feeling this is how it might become, but right now the damage is determined from the point when the bleed has been applied. If rip has been applied during TF the bonus it will continue to affect it even after falling of. Things that do affect bleed damage per tick are debuffs on the boss (like mangle). TF damage bonus at lvl80 is 80%. The bonus is 15% when you first get the skill at a low level and after that is starts going up per level.

Petitourson · 10/01/10, 5:00 AM

TF bonus is back at 15% at all levels currently on beta servers.

Anakim · 10/01/10, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Aradiel

I have a feeling this is how it might become, but right now the damage is determined from the point when the bleed has been applied. If rip has been applied during TF the bonus it will continue to affect it even after falling of. Things that do affect bleed damage per tick are debuffs on the boss (like mangle). .

I can confirm this. After much testing, dot damage is definitely determined by buffs when the initial debuff goes up and anything after that doesn't matter. It is definitely worthwhile to throw up dots during tigers fury. On another note, do we have any idea about stat weights of agility, haste, crit, and mastery? I'd assume hit and expertise will be worthwhile.

Valantha · 10/03/10, 11:37 PM

Currently, I am having a problem deciding on how to specifically tweak my tanking gear currently for 4.0 coming up (reforging etc) and into Cata.

I will give an example here:

Pre 4.0
Sanctified Lasherweave Headguard
Binds when picked up
Head Leather
540 Armor
+162 Agility
+162 Stamina
Meta Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +8 Agility
Durability 70 / 70
Classes: Druid
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 100 (2.2% at 80).
Equip: Increases attack power by 168.
Equip: Increases your armor penetration rating by 92.

turns into ---

Post 4.0
Sanctified Lasherweave Headguard
Binds when picked up
Head Leather
1217 Armor
+183 Agility
+239 Stamina
Meta Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +8 Agility
Durability 70 / 70
Classes: Druid
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 114.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 106.

Question #1: Do we need to decrease the haste rating and turn it into mastery and by how much?
Question #2: Should we decrease the haste rating evenly between all items for a dodge/mastery split?

Note: With almost full H gear I'm sitting at 608 total hate rating vs Pre 4.0 (roughly 200). The main idea is that bears do not need this much haste and those stats can be used to better us elsewhere. I've not seen a post about this yet. (Theorycrafting at a general degree.)

Isdochegal · 10/04/10, 5:33 AM

Valantha, you are comparing the old Itemlevel 264 to the new Itemlevel 277 version.
And is Reforging already included in 4.0.1? I thought it would come with Cataclysm.

After that, the actual stat who will want to reforge on your items depends on what you are doing and what your stats are after the changes from the patch.
Haste will increase rage generation which will be a lot lower than it is now. You will also loose 10 expertise through the talent changes (I for myself will try to cap expertise, if Reforging is added with 4.0.1). Furthermore you can also easily cap hit now if you don't already have it (remember here that hit gems are now blue, so no more hit/stamina gems in yellow sockets).
When all offensive stats are done with, mastery will be better than dodge because of the already big diminishing returns we have on dodge in icc gear.

Nich · 10/04/10, 7:56 AM

On the PTR at least, reforging is there.

Petitourson · 10/05/10, 4:35 AM

There's a blue post stating so:

Originally Posted by Zarhym

With all of the class changes going in, Reforging will allow players the opportunity to customize their gear a bit more before Cataclysm actually ships. It will also allow you to add Mastery to existing items if you so choose.

alarge · 10/06/10, 1:54 PM

Given that we're likely to see the patch in the very near future (and assuming that most of the dust has settled at this point), I'm thinking that I should start acquiring my new gems this week before they skyrocket in price. Has anyone put together enough of a theorycrafting model to figure out how to tune our gear after the patch?

I'm assuming something like the following:

Before the patch:

* For red sockets, switch ArP gems to agi

* For blue sockets, switch ArP gems to hit

* For yellow sockets, leave ArP gems in place to become crit gems

After the patch:

* Reforge ?

Am I close at all? Anyone have a more accurate and complete rule set?

I realize that many of these decisions may not matter much for a period after Cata comes out, but I'm interested in making the most of the period between the patch and the xpack.