[WOTLK 4.0] Cats - Page 19

Shonassir · 10/12/10, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Koril

For sure, it will be better to mangle first, so you start regenerating energy as soon as possible, and you hit ravage later. I agree that it's better to hit a few non-bleed-buffed shred to get the TF-buffed rake, but my guess is that it would be ok to use TF sooner, even if you cap your energy, use your free ravage after rip/rake so you will get close to the 100+ energy, and then pop berserk (assuming you want to berserk at pull). Thus you get TF buff on rip, rake, and ravage, and don't hit too much non-buffed shred. This is because I think TF becomes a more important cooldown, and we want it to be on CD as soon as possible (the same way we do for berserk). So i would say :
FC > mangle > SR > TF > rake > rip > ravage > pool energy > berserk.

The only problem is the energy cap, but I guess that with a few haste, berserk use here, and glyph of tiger fury, you won't need that must energy before your next TF. Correct me if I am wrong!

According to the talent tree listed:
Predatory Strikes: Increases critical strike chance of Ravage by 50% on targets at or above 80% health.

Now if you look down at Stampede:
Increases melee haste by 30% for 8 seconds after using Feral Charge, and your Ravage will temporarily NOT require stealth

With those two talents, one can infer that Ravage still requires stealth to use. I've not had a chance to play on the PTR due to PC troubles, so I am unaware of any changes regarding the use of Ravage. However, seeing as it would be a significant DPS increase with the new talents, it would be beneficial to know whether or not Ravage requires stealth still, or if the Stampede talent note is incorrect because it no longer requires stealth to use.

Obviously if it still requires stealth to use, I would say the DPS increase would come from charging at the start, giving you 8seconds to Ravage w/o Stealth > SR > Mangle > TF > Rake > Shred (til 5CP) > Rip. One could fit Berserk in there if you wish to use it at the start as well, though I'm unsure on the best place to fit that.

JaymzHendo · 10/12/10, 10:58 AM

Also as far as glyphs are concerned. On movement intensive fights (aka LDW) where the feral is chasing adds alot and with all other melee destroying them quickly and with the "only learn glyph once" change. Changing Glyph of Rip out for Glyph of Mangle. I'm really liking the possible utility of this function for us. No more carrying around glyphs in my bag for when I tank Saur or chase adds on LDW - its a simple switch. Any other ones - that any of you see that could be benefited like this.

Originally Posted by Shonassir

charging at the start, giving you the 30% haste,

Thats Bear charge
Cat charge removes stealth requirement on ravage - on your next ravage within 10 sec. Which is why I was thinking a Charge - Ravage - Roar - Ravage opener would be viable

Odas · 10/12/10, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by kalbear

The math on TF being valuable isn't that complicated; you can simply use TF whenever it is up and gain about 2% more DPS from its inherent bonus without worrying about anything else. This is because of the 15% bonus that it gives to all damage while active; instead of having an uptime of 6/30, you have 6/27.

Assuming you're using tiger's fury on cooldown, the glyph would result in ~2.2% more uptime or 0.33% damage from the buff itself. You would also gain (80/27)-(80/30) =~ 0.296 energy per second. Thats equivalent to
(0.296 energy)*(1% haste/(0.1 energy/sec))*(32.79 haste rating/haste%) =~ 97 haste rating. I haven't heard of anyone generating any specific numbers for the relative values of stats but if its anything close to live values in BiS 97 haste rating is between 1.5% and 2% damage.

JaymzHendo · 10/12/10, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by kalbear

King of the Jungle is simply not worth it in terms of what you trade off for it; taking 10% more damage of any sort is way too high for the gain of threat. .

At current T10 4 piece this isn't an issue, and macroing Barkskin to Enrage solves this down the road. True problem in my eyes is finding points at current level to put into KotJ. Seeing as I love my 'insta' aggro from popping enrage and gaining the extra damage on pull. My question now is "Where are all the 'good' bear glyphs"

psuman99 · 10/12/10, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Odas

I haven't heard of anyone generating any specific numbers for the relative values of stats but if its anything close to live values in BiS 97 haste rating is between 1.5% and 2% damage.

Mew (the descendant of Toskk's) now supports 4.0.1

WebMewPivot - Yawninglol

Using my current stats (the ptr was down so I couldn't test 4.0.1 stats) and adjusting gems to agility and giving myself 400 mastery (based on reforging my crit to mastery) my stat priority was:

Agility (2.42), Mastery (1.95), Haste (1.72), and Hit/Exp (1.47)

These numbers were generated using full raid buffs, SR, Rip, and Shred as glyphs (I did test TF instead of SR and SR won out) and using the basic level 80 spec which does not include master shapeshifter. It was a 300 second fight. I am in mostly 277 gear and have the 284 LK weapon.

Clearly not precise but it should provide people with a ballpark estimation of the value of stats until the patch goes live and people can plug their own stats into the model.

Alarron · 10/12/10, 11:36 AM

Guys, seriously, think for a minute and look at the tooltip. With 2/2 Stampede, you get a buff on doing FC that gives you a free, no-stealth-required Ravage within 8 seconds. Using that Ravage as an opener will:
1. Get you killed, as you pull threat from the tank.
2. Be inefficient...your energy is full at the start of the fight, so why burn the free move early and waste a GCD's worth of energy regen?

Get your rDPS boosts up (FF, Mangle...FF is a huge buff now), get your personal DPS boost up (SR), Rake, THEN Ravage/Shred to get cps to put Rip up. (Arguably, you might Shred once before you Rake to burn energy to use TF.)

Obviously, scenarios involving adds/burst damage may vary, but let's not go too crazy...things haven't changed much.
(FWIW, the first point of Stampede is worth MUCH more than the second...the first point enables the ability at 30 energy, the second point just drops the cost to 0.)

Odas · 10/12/10, 11:37 AM

Do you know what your average dps was according to Mew? I'll try it out myself once the servers come back up so I can get appropriate numbers.

psuman99 · 10/12/10, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Odas

Do you know what your average dps was according to Mew? I'll try it out myself once the servers come back up so I can get appropriate numbers.

It had me at around 10.5k DPS. Toskk's old model has me around 14.5 but I am pretty sure I am underestimating my stats compared to 4.0.1 and remember that many buffs have been changed which will lower our DPS overall, but arguably help us more relative to WotLK since agility is now our best stat and it is increased by many buffs (while armor pen was not).

Alarron · 10/12/10, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by psuman99

Mew (the descendant of Toskk's) now supports 4.0.1
WebMewPivot - Yawninglol

Using my current stats (the ptr was down so I couldn't test 4.0.1 stats) and adjusting gems to agility and giving myself 400 mastery (based on reforging my crit to mastery) my stat priority was:
Agility (2.42), Mastery (1.95), Haste (1.72), and Hit/Exp (1.47)

This tracks with my calculations. I've been recommending hit/exp for its rotational implications, but the bleed change made Mastery much more desirable.

JaymzHendo · 10/12/10, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Alarron

within 8 seconds. Using that Ravage as an opener will:
1. Get you killed, as you pull threat from the tank.
2. Be inefficient...your energy is full at the start of the fight, so why burn the free move early and waste a GCD's worth of energy regen?

While I agree with your logic - I have to be a bit picky here - you all are confusing the timer of bear charge and cat charge ability of Stampede - "your next ravage will temporarily not require stealth for 10 seconds after you use feral charge (cat) and cost 50% less energy" thats with 1 point. I also think you're undervaluing the "autocrit" ability we're going to have from ravage. If you're assuming 2/2 in Pred Strikes.

I also need to point out that I have a bear tank in 90% of my runs which effects my thinking - FF is not a concern for me but also could be applied immediately after the charge - removing my stealth and then Ravage.

Thus looking like this - NO bear tank - FC-FFF-Ravage-Roar-Mangle...
with bear tank - FC - Ravage (still stealthed)-Roar - Ravage(unstealthed) this is the part I'm unclear on - will the unstealthed ravage work this way.

Shonassir · 10/12/10, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Alarron

Guys, seriously, think for a minute and look at the tooltip. With 2/2 Stampede, you get a buff on doing FC that gives you a free, no-stealth-required Ravage within 8 seconds. Using that Ravage as an opener will:
1. Get you killed, as you pull threat from the tank.
2. Be inefficient...your energy is full at the start of the fight, so why burn the free move early and waste a GCD's worth of energy regen?

Get your rDPS boosts up (FF, Mangle...FF is a huge buff now), get your personal DPS boost up (SR), Rake, THEN Ravage/Shred to get cps to put Rip up. (Arguably, you might Shred once before you Rake to burn energy to use TF.)

Obviously, scenarios involving adds/burst damage may vary, but let's not go too crazy...things haven't changed much.
(FWIW, the first point of Stampede is worth MUCH more than the second...the first point enables the ability at 30 energy, the second point just drops the cost to 0.)

You're missing the point. The tooltip makes it seem as if Ravage still REQUIRES STEALTH to use, meaning it would NOT be part of a normal rotation. ALSO, if you waited for 1-2 seconds before charging and Ravaging, it gives time for MDs to be rocketed into the tank, on top of the threat he is also generating. You could also potentially start out with a Paladin's Salvation. There are countless ways to make the Charge > Ravage viable WITHOUT killing yourself.

TLDR: If ravage requires stealth to use, you cannot use it as part of the rotation. To take advantage of Ravage at all, one would have to start out stealth, or spec into Stampede and charge > ravage.

Alarron · 10/12/10, 12:11 PM

Shonassir, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Yes, Ravage still requires stealth, except for the duration of Stempede. Nobody's arguing for it to be a part of a normal rotation, except as an opener (though there's still some discussion on whether running out and using FC on cooldown to proc another Stampede is viable). My point was that once you proc Stampede, you've got 8 (or 10, whichever it is) sec to use it on a Ravage...don't use it right away.

Jaymz, to my knowledge, a stealthed FC/Ravage will still consume the buff (ie. you get the free part and the "can be used while unstealthed" part simply doesn't apply.)

Shonassir · 10/12/10, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Alarron

Get your rDPS boosts up (FF, Mangle...FF is a huge buff now), get your personal DPS boost up (SR), Rake, THEN Ravage/Shred to get cps to put Rip up. (Arguably, you might Shred once before you Rake to burn energy to use TF.)

You mention Ravage/Shred AFTER getting your rDPS boosts up. It would be kind of hard to put Ravage in there if it still requires stealth, unless we used the Stampede, that was my point. Some other people made the same mention of using Ravage in this fashion, and I wanted to clarify first that Ravage still required stealth, which you've stated, therefore making it impossible to use outside of an immediate opener (prior to rDPS increase buffs like FF / Mangle / SR).

With Ravage still requiring stealth, I'm argueing for at least 1 point in Stampede, as Nurturing Instinct (2pts) isn't necessarily needed either, given the fact we still have Barkskin and the new Survival Instincts if we were to get into any serious trouble. Or perhaps even morphing bear form with a glyph of Frenzied Regen (for the 30% increased healing effect), to get out of the danger zone.

JaymzHendo · 10/12/10, 12:55 PM

Shonassir - I see no reason - at least as of today at lvl 80 - you would need to worry about moving talents around to take SI or NI at least imo. We have 36 points to spend the only question is do we need to take 1 or 2 points in Stampede considering our crit rating, and do we WANT to take Brutal Impact for the interupt.

I personally see this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
as the way to go TODAY

The glyph choices are the only thing I'm seeing as being up in the air. Rip and SR seem to be no brainers to me with Rip being switched out for Mangle on quick dying targets. Now it boils down to Glyph of TF vs Shred - with TF it should (if my math is correct) allow for TF and Rip/Rake to allign slightly better - rake will align perfectly while rip will align within the duration of TF.

Alarron · 10/12/10, 1:00 PM

I'd disagree on NI. I see it as being more necessary then ever, actually. With the global increase in stamina and decrease in healer throughput, you'll be at 100% a lot less. +20% more healing on you means you need less attention and others can get more, especially that enhancement shaman with his wonderful Strength of Earth totem and Windfury.

Don't forget that we're losing our AoE damage reduction as well.