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Old 07/05/10, 12:18 PM   #61
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
Keep in mind that weapons no longer carry Feral AP and that gear no longer has AP as a standalone stat, so our overall AP is much lower in Cata than it is now. My AP in bear form on Live is 7344, in the exact same gear in the Beta I have 3720 AP.

After some very quick testing I can confirm that Savage Defense procs on some but not all crits, so I have no reason to distrust the stated 50% proc rate. I haven't had a chance to really test the shield size, but I can say that it's at least more than the current 25% of AP, that the buff tooltip still states 25% of AP, that the spellbook tooltip states 75% of AP, and that neither tooltip changes if your Mastery level changes.

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Old 07/05/10, 4:35 PM   #62
Paona
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kirin Tor
Since this is relevant to half, soon to be 1/4th the druids in Cataclysm, any word on racials? Will Tauren finally have the Holy Grail of being able to War Stomp in Bear Forms? Any other racials that are of note that have been implemented or changed? Seems like it's the only thing that hasn't been plastered all over the internet.

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Old 07/05/10, 6:02 PM   #63
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Melthu View Post
Keep in mind that weapons no longer carry Feral AP and that gear no longer has AP as a standalone stat, so our overall AP is much lower in Cata than it is now. My AP in bear form on Live is 7344, in the exact same gear in the Beta I have 3720 AP.
Can you give us any indication of how things hold up now? Obviously, scaling has been increased a lot (just look at the ravage numbers), but I've the sneaking suspicion that once we take into account losing half our AP, it might well mean we actually wound up just where we started.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

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Old 07/05/10, 7:47 PM   #64
Toletheus
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Paona View Post
Since this is relevant to half, soon to be 1/4th the druids in Cataclysm, any word on racials? Will Tauren finally have the Holy Grail of being able to War Stomp in Bear Forms? Any other racials that are of note that have been implemented or changed? Seems like it's the only thing that hasn't been plastered all over the internet.

I'm not sure regarding taurens, but the night elf racials are unchanged at this point in the beta. The only issue of note is that the worgen sprint racial shares a cooldown with dash.

Edit: Just tested tauren - stomp still breaks form.

Edit edit: Also, Draenei hit aura is gone, so that might be something to consider.

Last edited by Toletheus : 07/05/10 at 8:33 PM.

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Old 07/05/10, 9:54 PM   #65
Nich
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dreadmaul
Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
Can you give us any indication of how things hold up now? Obviously, scaling has been increased a lot (just look at the ravage numbers), but I've the sneaking suspicion that once we take into account losing half our AP, it might well mean we actually wound up just where we started.
I assume this holds for us, too:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker | WotLK > Cata = Loss in Spellpower?
WotLK to Cataclysm Spellpower Conversion
We're trying to keep everyone at about the same power level at 80. We want your Fireballs and Flash Heals to show about the same numbers before and after the conversion.

Now as soon as you gain a level from 80 to 81 all bets are off and numbers are going to start changing dramatically.
I'd be a little interested to hear about how the damage scales as people level up in the beta.

I'd like to offer moral support, but I have questionable morals

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Old 07/05/10, 10:48 PM   #66
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
Can you give us any indication of how things hold up now? Obviously, scaling has been increased a lot (just look at the ravage numbers), but I've the sneaking suspicion that once we take into account losing half our AP, it might well mean we actually wound up just where we started.
The numbers at level 82 with a 0/0/0 spec:

Cat form
Shred - 225% weapon damage + 698
Ravage - 550% weapon damage + 1705
Swipe - 125% weapon damage
Rake - [185 + AP/65] initial damage plus [370 + AP/11] damage per tick
Rip - [525 + AP/13.5] damage per tick at 5CP {135 + AP/67.5 at 1CP}

Bear form
Feral Faerie Fire - [AP*0.15] damage
Lacerate - [73 + AP/36] initial damage plus [63 + AP/32] damage per tick

These numbers are all very rough and many are different from the tooltip explanations. I'll hold off on adding any numbers to the original post at least until the level cap is raised to 85. I'll also note that most talents and masteries seem to be working correctly, though I have not extensively tested them.

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Old 07/06/10, 1:14 AM   #67
Hoofhearted
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Paona View Post
Since this is relevant to half, soon to be 1/4th the druids in Cataclysm, any word on racials? Will Tauren finally have the Holy Grail of being able to War Stomp in Bear Forms? Any other racials that are of note that have been implemented or changed? Seems like it's the only thing that hasn't been plastered all over the internet.
At the moment even troll berserking breaks forms which I'm pretty sure has to get fixed, so it's not time to look at racials yet.

edit: actually berserking doesn't break forms anymore so if you want to be pesimistic I guess warstomp still will

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Old 07/06/10, 1:15 AM   #68
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
I'd be a little interested to hear about how the damage scales as people level up in the beta.
As an example, my mangle did about 4500 on crits pre-SR at level 80 with mostly 264 level gear. When I dinged 81 I was doing 6k regularly. This was in cat form. Some basic testing seemed to follow with rake.

Currently Endless Rage is bugged and does not give an increase to Savage Roar's duration. Improved Feral Charge doesn't work in any way, shape or form with ravage. Swipe may be nerfed, but it appears to be doing significantly less damage than currently. Faerie fire doesn't work.

Also interesting to note - I gained about 5k health going from 80 to 81. In cat form.

Maul glyph hits a second target for 50% of the maul damage.

Any other questions on specific functionality? I'm not bothering with bear form for the most part given that swipe's threat is so miniscule currently (even with thrash), maul is broken and there's no FF, and the experience currently as a tank is simply not that enjoyable.

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Old 07/06/10, 4:40 AM   #69
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
I don't see that happening actually. Looking at Rupture, the closest equivalent we have to Rip, you'll see pretty much the same thing. It doesn't scale with weapon damage at all, purely with stats. Adjusting the multipliers will let us function much the same as our stealthy sneaky counterparts. I'd much sooner see them take that route.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

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Old 07/06/10, 7:18 AM   #70
Daefecator
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Ревущий фьорд (EU)
I see our core problem of AP scaling seems to finally being fixed now.

Ferals used to have up to 3 times as much AP as rogues. So given that we should be able to produce more or less the same DPS as rogues do, and our shared leather items increase our AP by a flat amount (not percentage), rogues gets more percentage buff from items than ferals do. This means if we are balanced in one tier of gear, then we would start to fall behind in the next one.

So, this is just a balancing step, our AP values will get more in line with rogues' ones. Then no matter what exact coefficients on our spells are, we will stay competitve through all the course of Cataclysm.

I'd say our abilites got buffed significantly rather then nerfed. First of all, if our AP just got down, but damage stayed about the same then it's no more than a numbers rejuggle (or no change) for now. And then it's a long term scaling buff.

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Old 07/06/10, 8:03 AM   #71
Paona
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kirin Tor
Originally Posted by Toletheus View Post
I'm not sure regarding taurens, but the night elf racials are unchanged at this point in the beta. The only issue of note is that the worgen sprint racial shares a cooldown with dash.

Edit: Just tested tauren - stomp still breaks form.

Edit edit: Also, Draenei hit aura is gone, so that might be something to consider.
Does the worgen sprint racial break Bear Form? If it doesn't that would lessen the sting of being on the same cooldown as Dash. Oh, that would make for a very mobile Bear. <.<;

Any word on whether our /cast !<druid form> snarebreak macros still work either? Probably ill-advised to use as a Bear in the future, once rage is normalized, but it certainly still has Cat PvE and PvP implications. Although now that I think about it, it *does* become slightly more appealing as a burst of emergency rage when grounded out... trading mana for rage... especially if Hybrids move away from the traditional 3/5 Furor to 5/5 Furor. (Straight bears, it's a foregone conclusion that they'll go 5/5 anyways, right?)

Last edited by Paona : 07/06/10 at 8:11 AM.

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Old 07/06/10, 10:03 AM   #72
Deathwing
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Melthu View Post
The numbers at level 82 with a 0/0/0 spec:

Cat form
Shred - 225% weapon damage + 698
Ravage - 550% weapon damage + 1705
Swipe - 125% weapon damage
Rake - [185 + AP/65] initial damage plus [370 + AP/11] damage per tick
Rip - [525 + AP/13.5] damage per tick at 5CP {135 + AP/67.5 at 1CP}

Bear form
Feral Faerie Fire - [AP*0.15] damage
Lacerate - [73 + AP/36] initial damage plus [63 + AP/32] damage per tick

These numbers are all very rough and many are different from the tooltip explanations. I'll hold off on adding any numbers to the original post at least until the level cap is raised to 85. I'll also note that most talents and masteries seem to be working correctly, though I have not extensively tested them.
What, not going to mention the new values of mangle in hopes that it doesn't get nerfed? Mangle sims(with shred on OOC) sims come pretty close to shred in live today. Even with 30% more weapon damage on mangle, shred still holds a slightly higher DPE. But more combo points and just plain easier to use should make mangle the obvious choice.

That's not even taking into account the new execute-like talent for ferocious bite making the shred glyph useless for 25% of the fight. I can't wait until simcraft is updated for cataclysm beta.

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Old 07/06/10, 10:47 AM   #73
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
I didn't do Mangle because there's more testing I want to do with a 0/0/0 spec (you'll notice I got almost no numbers on bear abilities yet) and respeccing is a bit of a pain with no druid trainer near target dummies. That said, despite the buffs to Mangle I fully expect a Shred rotation to end up being indisputably superior in PvE, else there would be no reason to have Shred.

Edit: Something I wanted to add in my last post but forgot is how weapons work now. With a 0/0/0 spec and no gear at level 82 as a Night Elf, you have 158 AP from 89 Strength (10 Strength doesn't seem to contribute AP), 160 AP from 90 Agility (again, 10 of it doesn't seem to contribute AP), and 164 AP from Cat Form or 120 AP from Bear Form for a total of 482/438, and a damage range of 35-36 / 79-80. Your damage range stays at just 1 until you add a weapon. It works exactly like you'd expect - divide both the minimum and maximum values by the speed and add that damage directly to your current damage range. For bears you have to multiply by 2.5 and add that value.

Last edited by Melthu : 07/06/10 at 11:07 AM.

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Old 07/06/10, 11:55 AM   #74
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
I managed to test a few more abilities before the servers went down:

Bear form
Thrash - [40 + AP/25] initial damage plus [15 + AP/75] damage per tick
Swipe - [50 + AP/16] damage
Maul (100 rage) - [5 + AP/1.5] damage

Interesting things to note are that Swipe does not have any interaction with Thrash at this point, and that both the initial damage and (oddly) the bleed portions of Thrash are affected by armor (above values are pre-armor reduction). When the servers come back up I'll get Maul at different rage values and Mangle.

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Old 07/06/10, 3:22 PM   #75
Toletheus
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Paona View Post
Does the worgen sprint racial break Bear Form? If it doesn't that would lessen the sting of being on the same cooldown as Dash. Oh, that would make for a very mobile Bear. <.<;

Any word on whether our /cast !<druid form> snarebreak macros still work either? Probably ill-advised to use as a Bear in the future, once rage is normalized, but it certainly still has Cat PvE and PvP implications. Although now that I think about it, it *does* become slightly more appealing as a burst of emergency rage when grounded out... trading mana for rage... especially if Hybrids move away from the traditional 3/5 Furor to 5/5 Furor. (Straight bears, it's a foregone conclusion that they'll go 5/5 anyways, right?)


Dark Flight does NOT break form. Snare-break macros still work.

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