[WOTLK 4.0] Restoration Discussion - Page 11

Fallenangel · 08/21/10, 5:34 AM

Efflorescence seems like a very strong melee healer now, essentially an aura on them, which might cause balance issues in 10m. On the other one it will be a single target only boost on many fights on the ranged. Our crit bonuses are simply more healing on the same target in a lot of cases which can be redundant.
Speaking of crit bonuses, is anyone really excited about a CD reduction by 0.5s by crits only from 2.5s cast time spells? You'd be lucky to get more than 1 proc between each SM. Reducing the CD on SM to 14.5s is hardly helpful. If it was tied to Regrowth instead it would be lovely - or if we could actually get some love to Nourish / HT.
Having bugs such as retaining +2s from LB won't affect testing too much I hope. It sounds like it has a major effect on healing.
Rejuv losing on a large chunk of its +healing, making it nearly identical to Renew.
Tier 1 of all talent trees is a mess right now. T1 resto has useful stuff but is bloated and contains 2 abysmal talents. T1 balance is the same without the useful stuff. and T1 feral keeping its +int talent is simply competing with T2 balance which is actually decent.

Kalaya · 08/21/10, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Tier 1 of all talent trees is a mess right now. T1 resto has useful stuff but is bloated and contains 2 abysmal talents. T1 balance is the same without the useful stuff. and T1 feral keeping its +int talent is simply competing with T2 balance which is actually decent.

Regarding balance, they should just switch Nature's Grace and Nature's Majesty to T2 and Moonglow and Genesis to T1. That would get you 31-32 points in Resto, 3 points in Feral for Furor and 6-7 points in Balance to divide among some decent talents.

Playered · 08/21/10, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Tier 1 of all talent trees is a mess right now. T1 resto has useful stuff but is bloated and contains 2 abysmal talents. T1 balance is the same without the useful stuff. and T1 feral keeping its +int talent is simply competing with T2 balance which is actually decent.

T1/T2 Resto seems fine to me? you have the choice of HoTW or NSS/MSS to progress to T3. Or you can go without Blessing of the Grove and pick up NSS/MSS. In general though the tree seems somewhat better than before with a fair few choices the player can make on their standard build - we'll see.

Fallenangel · 08/21/10, 9:01 AM

T2 resto is fine (and I didn't mention it before). T1 is just bloated. Having to spend 3 points on MS is not fine. NS and MS should be unlinked, and MS changed to 2/4 effect for 2 talent points. Blessing of the Grove really needs to be removed or buffed in a major way, maybe merged into Imp Rejuv for 20% boost.
As an aside T2 resto's problem is that it offers nearly no benefit for cats and owls.
It feels like certain talents are paying a tax for affecting more than one spec, which is absurd because each spec only enjoys part of the benefits. Arbiter of the Light - Spell - World of Warcraft and Crusade - Spell - World of Warcraft is how is should be done.

It would be nice if someone in the beta could post preliminary numbers too, like ticks of hots, SM etc.

Krag · 08/21/10, 1:46 PM

NS+MS is 3 points for 4% healing, I don't really see that as a huge weakness. Yes, it's annoying that Natural Shapeshifter pretty much does nothing now, but I don't think it's a big issue, though I'd prefer if it got changed to something marginally interesting or useful of course.

Blessing of the Grove does seem like a feral or leftover filler talent now, but at least we have other options.

ttyl · 08/21/10, 2:05 PM

lvl 80 premade, 0/0/0, 2003 spell power:

Nourish (no HoT): 4100-4600 [244 mana, 3.0 cast]
HT: 9300-10600 [1328 mana, 3.0 cast]
RG: 4400-4800, 468 tick [1223 mana, 2.0 cast, 21 sec]
RJ: 1693 tick [874 mana, 12 sec]
LBx1: 227 tick, 2248 bloom [174 mana, 7 sec]

lvl 80 premade, 0/0/32 (only missing Genesis), 2003 spell power:

Nourish (no HoT): 5900-6700 [244 mana, 2.5 cast]
HT: 13400-15000 [1328 mana, 2.5 cast]
RG: 5800-6200, 608 tick [1223 mana, 2.0 cast, 21 sec] the +60% crit definitely works for the HoT
Efflorescence: 370-410 tick [7 ticks totaling 30% of Regrowth crit]
RJ: 2618 tick [874 mana, 12 sec] *
LBx1: 295 tick, 3068 bloom [174 mana, 7 sec]
SM: 10122 [349 mana]
WG: 925->415 [943 mana, 7 sec]

All crit for 150%
Tranquility was bugged

* GotEM ticked for 941... Lower than 15%, but it got me wondering how additional ticks from haste will affect this talent? Too many unknowns/bugs for me to find out.

edit: Hmm... Mastery is working but only checks current HP on application. Hopefully that's a bug :\ Oh, and Thorns is 1258 mana, 20 sec duration, 45 sec cooldown.

Fallenangel · 08/21/10, 4:23 PM

Thanks, Efflorescence doesn't seem that impressive, but it should be a decent melee heal / tank buffer.
Will be interesting to see how spell scale with gear. Was also hoping for higher values from SM / LB.

Arentios · 08/21/10, 4:43 PM

As previously discussed Efflorescence is very bugged (or the nerfed and the tooltip not updated to what it should be), and is healing for 1/7 of what it was in the previous build and the tool tip it indicates it should still heal for.

Lifebloom definitely has some poor scaling right now. There's also a bug where if you renew the duration with Nourish it gets set to heal for a 0 spellpower Lifebloom value unless you cast another Lifebloom (550ish at 3 stacks). Thorns also has terrible spellpower scaling (440 or so base, at 4500 spellpower it's doing 550 damage). Mana values escalate tremendously after 80, here are the numbers at 83, with no Moonglow taken:

Base mana at 83 is approximately 2.73x what it is at 80.

Nourish: 667 mana
Regrowth: 3339 mana
Rejuvenation: 2385 mana
Swiftmend: 954 mana
Lifebloom: 477 mana
Wild Growth: 2576 mana
Healing Touch: 3625 mana
Remove Corruption: 1622 mana

A resto druid in Deepholme + ICC gear will have around 55-60k mana unbuffed at 83 with both Furor and Heart of the Wild taken.

lissanna · 08/21/10, 4:54 PM

We seem to have gotten Wild Growth's mana cost reduced to a more reasonable level, which makes me happy.

This beta build fixes some bugs, but introduces others. It's just part of the beta testing process. I'd prefer to have effloresence be less overpowered at high crit levels (and have regrowth fixed so that the talent isn't giving it a base 60% crit, which can't possibly be intended), but we're still going to need the range on it to be larger than 4 yards if it is supposed to actually hit more than one person at a time.

Ikkusa · 08/23/10, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by lissanna

... but we're still going to need the range on it to be larger than 4 yards if it is supposed to actually hit more than one person at a time.

Is the "bed of healing flora" applied as an aura on the players that have been in range when the Regrowth crit happened, or on the players it procced on, or is it an area that can be entered after the spell had been cast so you can step into it to get healing from it?

If it is the latter, I actually think it matches other mechanics pretty well - make the DPS actively look out for healing. The new lightwell seems to go the same direction. Unless in fights which enforce spreading out, stepping into efflorescence procs of others next to you can make up a good amount of healing and requires some more awareness of players next to keeping up their rotation and not standing in the fire. And a stacked ranged camp get a lot of healing out of it, assuming multiple procs stack. The new graphic supports this aswell, since it makes the area very easy to spot.

Fallenangel · 08/23/10, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by Ikkusa

Is the "bed of healing flora" applied as an aura on the players that have been in range when the Regrowth crit happened, or on the players it procced on, or is it an area that can be entered after the spell had been cast so you can step into it to get healing from it?

If it is the latter, I actually think it matches other mechanics pretty well - make the DPS actively look out for healing. The new lightwell seems to go the same direction. Unless in fights which enforce spreading out, stepping into efflorescence procs of others next to you can make up a good amount of healing and requires some more awareness of players next to keeping up their rotation and not standing in the fire. And a stacked ranged camp get a lot of healing out of it, assuming multiple procs stack. The new graphic supports this aswell, since it makes the area very easy to spot.

It doesn't really matter if it's an aura or a static effect since in both ways you could clump up on the effect. Sadly raids don't work like this. If the raid could safely clump up, they'd do it from the start. If some effect prevents them from doing so which is extremely common, then they can't run to the flowers after they procced from the same reason.
Not to mention no DPSer will run to such a healing zone. It really isn't going to happen. Funny you mention Lightwell which was plagued with the same issues for quite a few cycles now. They keep trying to boost it - click range, not switching targets - and maybe it will be more useful now, but a 4 yard area isn't going to work as you want it to.

ttyl · 08/23/10, 5:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ikkusa

An area that can be entered after the spell had been cast so you can step into it to get healing from it?

Works like that. There is an invisible Efflorescence buff that you gain/lose when you enter/exit. It does stack at the moment. Also, all prior Efflorescence "beds" tick for the same amount as your most recent. Strange...

Efflorescence (and Lightwell) do fit Blizzard's Cata healing philosophy, but this patch nerfed it too much for any DPS to bother. Needs old range + new healing or old healing + new range.

@Whitefyst below: It's a stationary circle applied under the Regrowth target.

Whitefyst · 08/25/10, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

It doesn't really matter if it's an aura or a static effect since in both ways you could clump up on the effect. Sadly raids don't work like this. If the raid could safely clump up, they'd do it from the start. If some effect prevents them from doing so which is extremely common, then they can't run to the flowers after they procced from the same reason.
Not to mention no DPSer will run to such a healing zone. It really isn't going to happen. Funny you mention Lightwell which was plagued with the same issues for quite a few cycles now. They keep trying to boost it - click range, not switching targets - and maybe it will be more useful now, but a 4 yard area isn't going to work as you want it to.

Although it is true that there are many boss fights or even trash pulls where the range DPS has to spread out, there are still plenty of fights where the ranged DPS can clump together and some that even require it. Hence, this AoE healing effect can be useful in many situations.

It also matters the mechanic of who is affected. Is it an aura around the Regrowth target that moves with the target? Is it an effect that applies to the area around where the Regrowth target was when it procced but does not move with the target? Does it only affect those that were in the area at the time of the proc? Or does it affect any that move into the effect during its duration?

I assume that people can move on top of the effect to get the healing. If that is so, then even when ranged DPS has to be spread out for certain strategies, I can still see nearby ranged DPS making a small movement during periods where it is safe to be close to get a few healing ticks if necessary without losing much if any DPS. Now on some fights it may not be worth it to move a little to get the few ticks of healing, but it may be worth it on some, especially if you have to move a lot anyway periodically.

ttyl · 08/31/10, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by mmochampion.com

Balance
Innervate now regenerates mana equal to 20% of the casting Druid's maximum mana pool, down from 33%.
Moonglow now reduces the mana cost of all your damage and healing spells.
Nature's Majesty now increases the critical strike chance with all spells.

Feral
Furor now increases your maximum mana by 5/10/15% instead of increasing your intellect by 2/4/6%.

Restoration
Lifebloom now heals over 10 sec, up from 7 sec. Costs 7% of base mana, up from 5%.
Omen of Clarity is now properly flagged as Passive.
Regrowth HoT effect reduced by 60%, now heals over 6 sec instead of 21 sec. Cast time reduced from 2 sec to 1.5 sec.
Natural Perfection is now a Tier 5 talent, down from Tier 6.
Swift Rejuvenation is now a Tier 6 talent, up from Tier 5.
Revitalize revamped - When you periodically heal with your Rejuvenation or Lifebloom spells, you have a 8/16/24% chance to instantly regenerate 3% of your total mana. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 sec.
Heart of the Wild no longer increases maximum mana by 5/10/15%, now increases Intellect by 2/4/6%.

Finally changed Regrowth to a Flash Heal... Although now the HoT is basically just for flavor/Nourish if it really heals for 60% less and lasts 6 sec. Still wondering if they want us to prefer 15% max mana or 6% int. They keep playing with those 2 talents. Rest of the changes seem good, except maybe Revitalize. A chance on top of a chance :\

@Erdluf: Ah, I didn't think about Regrowth like that. Interesting. And, wow, you're right about Revitalize. That's much better. Thanks for the perspective.

Erdluf · 08/31/10, 9:01 AM

Regrowth: 60% less HoT healing, but 70% less duration means the ticks should be slightly stronger (if the per-tick coefficient stayed about the same). If the 60% Regrowth crit bonus applies to the HoT, even better.

Lifebloom: At 10s duration, using a 2s Nourish to Refresh Lifebloom every 10s is significantly less of an "intrusion" to whatever other healing you are responsible for.

Revitalize: The word "crit" is no longer mentioned, so you're not looking at nested chances. Still, it is probably weaker than before, unless Rejuv gets a lot more use than I expect.