[WOTLK 4.0] Restoration Discussion - Page 15

ttyl · 09/10/10, 6:13 PM

Some glyph changes:
Lifebloom (Prime): +10% crit chance on LB
Rejuv (Prime): +10% RJ healing
Swiftmend (Prime): no change
Regrowth (Prime): "Your Regrowth HoT will automatically refresh its duration on targets at or below 25% health."
Healing Touch (Major): "When you Healing Touch, the cooldown on your Nature's Swiftness is reduced by 5 sec."
Innervate (Major): "When Innervate is cast on a friendly target other than the caster, the caster will gain 50% of Innervate's effect."
Wild Growth (Major): no change
Thorns (Major): -20s cooldown (so 4/5th uptime hmm)
Entangling Roots (Major): makes it instant cast (wasn't that ToL's effect?)
Nourish changed to a Starsurge glyph and Rapid Rejuv is gone (obviously)

Rijndael · 09/10/10, 6:22 PM

Does anyone else replicate Thorns on beta (warlock imp maybe)? It's a pretty beefy aoe threat tool now.

ttyl · 09/10/10, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

Does anyone else replicate Thorns on beta (warlock imp maybe)? It's a pretty beefy aoe threat tool now.

Imp doesn't have Fire Shield anymore. A level 80 Paladin's Ret Aura with 2500 spellpower and +60% damage only hits for 250. Level 83 with 3000 spellpower made Thorns hit for 1700... New scaling + new Glyph seems like too much.

Jone · 09/10/10, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

Does anyone else replicate Thorns on beta (warlock imp maybe)? It's a pretty beefy aoe threat tool now.

There's an old post by GC implying that thorns will not be a buff that can be up all the time here:
MMO-Champion - Bastion of Twilight, MLG Raleigh, Blue Posts

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We think it has more of a purpose with more damage packed into a smaller window than weak damage available 100% of the time. In the latter case you'd never think twice about attacking someone with Thorns because it's never not there. It also asks a little more of the druid to use Thorns at the right time rather than just whenever the buff drops off. Thorns isn't a raid buff on the scale of something like Fortitude or Bloodlust so we see no reason to consolidate it.

Rijndael · 09/10/10, 9:32 PM

Originally Posted by Jone

There's an old post by GC implying that thorns will not be a buff that can be up all the time here:
MMO-Champion - Bastion of Twilight, MLG Raleigh, Blue Posts

I am not sure what in my post lead you to believe I wasn't aware of how Thorns worked in beta.

Re: imp and retribution aura: perhaps this iteration of thorns coupled with the nerfing of tank aoe threat gives caster druids (boomkins and resto) another raid utility. It has been Blizzard's theme to rework useless spells (soothe, thorns, resto healing toolkit) to make them more useful. This leads me to believe thorn buffs will probably stay. Imps have other ways to be useful, and retribution paladins run their aura for other reasons. We had no real reasons to cast thorns except as a miniscule damage contribution. Now it can help tanks with aoe threat, and has obvious pvp applications on focus targets.

• Hamlet · 09/12/10, 9:02 PM

So I'd been noticeably absent from this thread for a while--I was away for a while, and people have probably also seen me focusing on Moonkin stuff a lot recently. I do want to get some Resto theorycraft work underway though, so they're both ready for live (especially since, in all likelihood, I'm still going to be actually playing Resto in raids). The Moonkin sheet is almost ready for live already, but before I really get into looking at Resto, I wanted to ask a bit about what we want out of a theorycraft tool.

Healing obviously is less focused on raw spreadsheet output than DPS is, but there's still a lot of basic info you want to know. Most importantly, what's the raw HPS/HPM of each of my spells? There are few situations where you're more or less playing like a DPSer and trying to optimize a rotation for HPS (such as spam healing on one tank). Finally, you want to see the quantitative effect of various stats/talents/set bonuses on your most-used spells. I think TreeCalcs did all of these things pretty well, and it generally got good feedback. It didn't really do much else and was a very simple sheet (none of the complex rotation stuff that the Moonkin sheet needs).

For Cataclysm though--some new mechanics make it hard to do any serious computation (I'm thinking mostly of Deep Healing here). I think I can still put together a basic spell chart so we can compare HPS/HPM of everything and get a sense of the various stats/talents (although again, not sure what I'd do with the Mastery stat). But I was wondering what other ideas people have for information we might want, to help inform good play.

Eph · 09/12/10, 9:52 PM

Along the same lines of ordering HPS/HPM, we may also want to sort out the value of the mana conservation/regeneration talents Moonglow (-9% mana cost), Heart of the Wild (+6% int), Revitalize (3% total mana return proc), and even Furor (+15% mana). Especially since we can't get half of them without making throughput choices which would also have to be determined by healing priorities and rotations based on their HPS/HPM and the various new mechanics.

And although druids have been known more as raid healers and EJ has been primarily concerned with 25 man raiding, the inevitable rise in popularity of 10 mans may be reason to include an equal focus on tank healing data.

Erdluf · 09/12/10, 10:12 PM

It might be good to let people have one or two rotations where they enter their custom spell mix (by number of casts)

Sample:
Average target health 80% (for Deep healing):
WG: 1 (@4.5 targets), HT 1, Nourish 3, Rejuv 1.5, Regrowth 2 (euphoria ticks average 1.5 targets), Lb3 rolling (maintained by Nourish)

Once I've entered those numbers, treat it like a first-class rotation.

If I select it as my "current" rotation, I'd then want to see numbers that help choose between Genesis/Moonglow/Furor, as well as stat weights.

Kluian · 09/13/10, 1:25 AM

Originally Posted by Carnathagia

Haste
Rejuvenation:
4 ticks 0%-12.4% haste
5 ticks 12.5%-37.4% haste
6 ticks 37.5%-62.4% haste

Wild Growth:
7 ticks 0%-7% haste
8 ticks 7.1%-21.3% haste
9 ticks 21.4%-35.6% haste
10 ticks 35.7%-49.9% haste

Regrowth: (base is now 3 ticks over 6 seconds)
3 ticks 0%-16.5% haste
4 ticks 16.6%-49.9% haste

Lifebloom:
10 ticks 0%-4.9% haste
11 ticks 5%-14.9% haste
12 ticks 15%-24.9% haste
13 ticks 25%-34.9% haste
14 ticks 35%-44.9% haste

Efflorescence cannot benefit directly from haste or crit.

Mastery
Additional healing from mastery is determined when the spell aura is applied. If you apply a HoT when the target has 100% health, you will gain no bonus on any subsequent ticks. Therefore, it is most efficient to apply your HoT at the lowest possible HP.

%Health_Deficit*Mastery% = Additional Healing

For instance, If your Rejuvenation ticks for 3000 hp, you have 40% mastery bonus, and you apply it at 20% target health:

80%[hp deficit]*40%=32% additional healing.
3000*1.32=3960 Rejuvenation ticks

Can you explain your formula for the haste ranges for ticks?

The way I was thinking was that to acquire the minimum haste needed for an extra tick would work like this -

5 Rejuv ticks. 12 second base cast duration. 12 / 5 = 2.4 seconds between each tick. For that hot duration, you'd need (3/2.4 = 1.25), or 25% haste.

That isn't correct. It appears you only need half of that haste. So once you reach a threshold of reducing the total hot duration by half of a single hot tick, then you gain an extra tick? It looks like they allow the hot to go past its normal duration? Ie at 13% haste my rejuv looks like it lasts 13 seconds in game.

Eph · 09/13/10, 1:36 AM

Instead of giving a partial tick in some way, it rounds up to the nearest additional tick. At 12.4% you are closer to no additional tick, at 12.5% it rounds up giving the bonus 5th tick.

• Hamlet · 09/13/10, 1:40 AM

Yes, they're saying it rounds to the nearest integral number of ticks, whether up or down. So you can get more than the default duration at some haste values.

To put it succinctly, if a HoT has k ticks by default, then haste breakpoints (addition of an extra tick) will come at haste values of (2n+1)/2k, for integers n.

lolofora · 09/13/10, 6:32 AM

In TreeCacls for Deep Healing, I think we need an additional table for each spell (with steps of 20%), to view the gain of HPS by the life of the target.

It would be interesting to see also different with or without the transformation into a tree.

For the talent "Efflorescence", should be able to inform the number of people impacted.

In addition to the extra-ticks, it should also have the time interval between each tick.

it looks very difficult to estimate, good luck

Carnathagia · 09/13/10, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

To put it succinctly, if a HoT has k ticks by default, then haste breakpoints (addition of an extra tick) will come at haste values of (2n+1)/2k, for integers n.

Thanks, Hamlet, that is the formula I was looking for.

I found these numbers by observing the time difference between the previous and theoretical next tick for varying haste values, and it worked out to be the [Hot Duration]+.5[Additional Tick Duration]/(1+.01*Haste), which I was able to verify pretty meticulously with the Thaumaturge. For instance, Rejuvenation would gain an extra tick at (12+1.5)/12=1.125 or 12.5% haste and (12+3+1.5)/12=1.375 or 37.5% haste.

Whitefyst · 09/13/10, 5:36 PM

Some other nice to haves for TreeCalcs:

For each HoT (and DoT in Moonkin sheet): The additional haste rating needed to gain another tick or to lose another tick. This would be useful information to know in regards to reforging.

A reforge buffer for all reforgeable stats. You fill in the normal stat fields for what you currently have on your gear as usual and leave them alone. Next to those stats are boxes for +/- reforge reallocation. In addition, there is a box for providing your +/- reforge state budget to aid us in maintaining a zero balance. When you enter a positive/negative value in a reforge box for a stat, not only does it increase/decrease the stat value used in the normal calculations, but it also scales that stat to be subtracted/added into the reforge budget value. This would allow us to easily mess around with reforge options with seeing their impacts w/o having to keep reentering our current stats, making sure in our head that we are correctly converting each stat, and making sure in our heads that we are ending with a 0 reforge balance. (This feature would be useful in the Moonkin sheet too.) Of course, since the sheet does not know what gear the character is wearing and how the stats are allocated on them, it would not be able to limit how much of each stat can be possibly reforged. The user will still have to do some work on their own, but this will definitely help with the reforging trade-offs.

• Hamlet · 09/13/10, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Some other nice to haves for TreeCalcs:

For each HoT (and DoT in Moonkin sheet): The additional haste rating needed to gain another tick or to lose another tick. This would be useful information to know in regards to reforging.

A reforge buffer for all reforgeable stats. You fill in the normal stat fields for what you currently have on your gear as usual and leave them alone. Next to those stats are boxes for +/- reforge reallocation. In addition, there is a box for providing your +/- reforge state budget to aid us in maintaining a zero balance. When you enter a positive/negative value in a reforge box for a stat, not only does it increase/decrease the stat value used in the normal calculations, but it also scales that stat to be subtracted/added into the reforge budget value. This would allow us to easily mess around with reforge options with seeing their impacts w/o having to keep reentering our current stats, making sure in our head that we are correctly converting each stat, and making sure in our heads that we are ending with a 0 reforge balance. (This feature would be useful in the Moonkin sheet too.) Of course, since the sheet does not know what gear the character is wearing and how the stats are allocated on them, it would not be able to limit how much of each stat can be possibly reforged. The user will still have to do some work on their own, but this will definitely help with the reforging trade-offs.

First part is actually already in the Moonkin sheet, will be in next upload.

Second part is largely the function of the marginal stat values that are already there--unless you're in a zone of heavy nonlinearity, I would think that those make reforging choices pretty obvious (especially since reforging currently happens at a 1:1 ratio).