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06/16/10, 4:41 PM
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#16
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Chromaggus (EU)
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Regarding raid HP levels, it seems like their goal just can't be obtained.
If the raid hovers around 40% (just taking the number tossed here), what exactly got it to 40%? Why isn't it bringing them lower? If someone at 40% is at constant danger of dying, then obviously you can't have the entire raid at that HP level or you will lose people. If it ticked down slowly to 40%, then it means that passive heals (and hots) are extremely weak.
Keeping (nearly) constant HP level that isn't 100% on a raid just doesn't work, barring some exotic mechanics like Leeching Swarm.
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06/16/10, 5:00 PM
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#17
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Fallenangel
Regarding raid HP levels, it seems like their goal just can't be obtained.
If the raid hovers around 40% (just taking the number tossed here), what exactly got it to 40%? Why isn't it bringing them lower? If someone at 40% is at constant danger of dying, then obviously you can't have the entire raid at that HP level or you will lose people. If it ticked down slowly to 40%, then it means that passive heals (and hots) are extremely weak.
Keeping (nearly) constant HP level that isn't 100% on a raid just doesn't work, barring some exotic mechanics like Leeching Swarm.
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I guess if we are to take Blizzard seriously, we have to believe that incoming DPS on raid will be balanced in such a way that it outpaces normal healer HPS, but is outpaced by "execute" healer HPS (e.g. HPS boosted by talents like Efflorescence+Nature's Bounty).
That will cause raid hp to behave as you say.
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06/17/10, 2:36 PM
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#18
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Grim Batol (EU)
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
I think Efflorescence is looking to be both useful and fun; the bigger issue is making Regrowth strong and usable enough to carry it. We saw in 3.3 that even when Regrowth is given comparable numerical power to Rejuv, it has trouble finding a use.
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From what I understand they will make Regrowth a 1.5 sec cast, as it will be the new 'flash heal'. I could definitely see myself using a 1.5 sec emergency heal (1 sec with enough haste) which leaves a HoT + AoE-heal on the ground in situations where many people are low, as opposed to how Nourish is now. I also wonder if Efflorescence will stack, although I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't.
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06/17/10, 5:55 PM
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#19
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Nesingwary
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The ToL cooldown combating the raid damage would seem like the most likely solution, but have we forgotten of the significant damage increases the cooldown provides? I was hoping our damage could actually provide a 'Touch of Nightmare'-esque debuff when used, so that our cooldown could be used to either maintain this 40% raidwide health pool, or provide some way of countering the H Festergut 25 equivalent in Cataclysm, whichever might be needed. Afterall, we are expected to be capable tank healers in the next expansion, but we have nothing to literally prevent a death.
Last edited by Mavara : 06/17/10 at 7:48 PM.
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06/19/10, 11:16 PM
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#20
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by Rijndael
I guess if we are to take Blizzard seriously, we have to believe that incoming DPS on raid will be balanced in such a way that it outpaces normal healer HPS, but is outpaced by "execute" healer HPS (e.g. HPS boosted by talents like Efflorescence+Nature's Bounty).
That will cause raid hp to behave as you say.
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Or even more importantly, by Deep Healing.
Overall though you guys are taking this too literally, as far as the raid always being at 40%. The more salient point has always been that far more people on average will be anywhere other than 100% or 0 at all times. It does the issue that HoT's will probably overheal for a lot less than they do now, so they probably won't have nearly as much raw output as they currently do.
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06/23/10, 6:24 AM
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#21
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Piston Honda
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I would hope that we'd continue to see a variety in the healing required in bossfights as we do at least somewhat now, but I'm not sure the changes to druid healing are going to make us quite as versatile as Blizzard seems to be hoping. In constant damage fights or fights where the raid spends most of the time at less than 95% hp, I'd expect Rejuv and Regrowth to continue to be our best heals, since that's more or less ideal circumstances for HoTs in general, and with our mastery buffing them on damaged targets they should win out fairly easily - I do expect that Blizzard will tweak Regrowth enough that we'll want to use it when standing still and Rejuv when moving or if we need more on a target with Regrowth up already, which will be more interesting.
Tank healing looks decent, but unless they tweak the relative mana numbers for Nourish and/or HT, tank healing is going to remain a much higher mana drain than "normal" druid healing, which poses a problem for being capable of doing both. However, without any tank buffs from our heals, I see it ending up with druids being the worst choice for dedicated tank healing and thus our tank healing still mostly being limited to using HoTs to assist a little and helping with Swiftmend and Nourish on damage spikes on heavy tank damage fights even if we end up capable of a more dedicated role, though that's not really a problem.
Kinda worried about our ability to quickly top off random spike damage though, at least at the first raid tier or two before gear scaling removes most mana worries again. If they succeed in causing us to stop constantly keeping HoTs on a large portion of the raid when they don't need it, I don't see Nourish being of much use for spike damage other than as a follow-up spell to Rejuv or Regrowth if one is needed and Swiftmend is on CD. Regrowth seems like the most likely candidate for spike raid healing - but with a major HoT attached I'm not sure how that's going to end up being powerful enough to match other healers while not being much more expensive than other "flash heals." If it does end up that strong, it's going to be a little ridiculous in situations where more of the HoT is useful.
Efflorescence seems interesting, but I do question just how many tools a raid needs to heal up groups of people - I think we're already at a point where healing the melee on a standard spread out fight tends to not be an issue unless something blows up in the middle of them that isn't supposed to, at least compared to how difficult healing the ranged is on the same fight. Unless we see more fights where the ranged clump up as well, the usefulness may be a bit limited though we'll at least have the extra healing on the primary target.
One major question on my mind though is whether or not you get mastery bonuses from trees outside the one you have the most points in, as for some reason I've gotten the impression that you may. If so, that could put odd pressures on resto druid talent specs to skip any mediocre to bad talents they can in the resto tree to instead pick up otherwise bad or useless talents in balance for the haste mastery bonus. I imagine the effects will be limited as I'm not currently seeing useful places to put some of the 16 more or less required points in balance - but I'd rather not have pressure on me to skip improved barkskin for something I'd otherwise consider much less useful than the marginal PvE benefit of a better damage reduction cooldown and actually having armor in my primary healing form, just because I'd have 51+ points in resto without it and balance points would give me a bit of haste.
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06/23/10, 7:57 AM
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#22
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Druid
Echo Isles
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Originally Posted by Nethris
Tank healing looks decent, but unless they tweak the relative mana numbers for Nourish and/or HT, tank healing is going to remain a much higher mana drain than "normal" druid healing, which poses a problem for being capable of doing both.
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If they change nothing other than the talent trees we've already seen, tank healing will require much less mana than a WG + Rj*x rotation.
Rejuv in 3.5: 18% of base mana, benefits from Moonglow (9%), OoC (~6%), and ToL (20%).
Nourish in 3.5: 18% of base mana, benefits from Moonglow (9%), OoC (~6%), and TS (up to 10%, but 2-4% in typical builds).
Revitalize in 3.5: A raid-healing druid probably has Rejuv up on himself. Returns about 1% total mana every 20s (about 0.4% of base mana every second, at ICC levels).
The raid healer conserves mana largely because ToL >> TS, and partly because of Revitalize.
In 4.0: ToL mana reduction goes away. Revitalize gets no benefit from WG+Rj. However, maintain Rg and Lb (Lb is maintained by Nourish) on two tanks, and Revitalize will give you 3% of total mana every 10s or so (over 2% of base mana every second at ICC levels), even at low crit rates.
Also, the preview talent tree (wowhead) shows WG at 66% base mana (up from 23% on live).
A tank healer (particularly if he specs 5/5 Tranquil Spirit) will be able to last quite a bit longer than a Rejuv+WG healer.
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06/23/10, 9:39 PM
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#23
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Erdluf
In 4.0: ToL mana reduction goes away.
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I'm not sure how I missed that of all things - you're right, that does make the mana consumption pretty even with tank healing being cheaper. The 66% increase in the effective cost of a bloomed LB seems like it could make LB much less attractive if not rolling it with nourish. That does increase my concern that regrowth will end up very expensive for flash heal style use, though worrying about mana costs too much without seeing the numbers they're using currently is probably pointless.
I do wonder how much mana each point of int is giving with the comment on the stat preview that it will give less - Dreamstate is currently pretty terrible but that change could make it somewhat less so in a relative sense, and if ToL ends up being an at most once a fight cooldown and not used for damage in PvE, skipping imp ToL and imp Barkskin for getting a couple points in Dreamstate may make sense for at least the first tier. For comparison, with 10 second average Revitalize procs with tank healing or regrowth heavy raid healing being a simple assumption I'm getting that Revitalize points would be a little under 3 times as effective as the second or third Dreamstate point with my current gear, while with 10 mana per int it would be pretty close to twice as effective - though lower gear levels in early Cata will favor Revitalize more.
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06/24/10, 12:31 PM
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#24
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Soda Popinski
Tauren Druid
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Erdluf
If they change nothing other than the talent trees we've already seen, tank healing will require much less mana than a WG + Rj*x rotation.
~/~
In 4.0: ToL mana reduction goes away. Revitalize gets no benefit from WG+Rj. However, maintain Rg and Lb (Lb is maintained by Nourish) on two tanks, and Revitalize will give you 3% of total mana every 10s or so (over 2% of base mana every second at ICC levels), even at low crit rates.
Also, the preview talent tree (wowhead) shows WG at 66% base mana (up from 23% on live).
A tank healer (particularly if he specs 5/5 Tranquil Spirit) will be able to last quite a bit longer than a Rejuv+WG healer.
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I don't know how you can even contemplate anything regarding mana consumption without actual spell costs at level 85, typical mana and regeneration levels when you will enter the first tier of raiding at least. This ignores the actual output levels of the spells too which is a slightly significant factor in these areas as well.
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Originally Posted by Vontre
I don't know anything
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06/26/10, 7:47 PM
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#25
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Glass Joe
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Any thoughts on why they (Blizz) would put the movement reduction back on ToL?? IMHO, 50% is crucial in many PvE boss encounters and is obviously is an awful "debuff" in PvP. =( .....sure we have the 240% armor increase, but that's not gonna help me much running 1/2 speed and trying to LoS that mage before he gibs me. *chuckle*
Not whining here folks, just wondering why they would re-implement something they found terrible enough to remove from the game previously?
- V -
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06/26/10, 8:27 PM
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#26
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Thunderlord
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Originally Posted by Vorick
Any thoughts on why they (Blizz) would put the movement reduction back on ToL?? IMHO, 50% is crucial in many PvE boss encounters and is obviously is an awful "debuff" in PvP. =( .....sure we have the 240% armor increase, but that's not gonna help me much running 1/2 speed and trying to LoS that mage before he gibs me. *chuckle*
Not whining here folks, just wondering why they would re-implement something they found terrible enough to remove from the game previously?
- V -
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I'm guess GC would say they find giving up mobility 100% of the time a less fun type of decision than giving up mobility something like 15% of the time, when you choose to. We are already too mobile compared to other healers if the aim was to bring the healers a little closer together (less so as RJ/WG become less attractive). I think it could be an interesting tactic to decide when to exploit our mobility and when to trade off mobility for burst.
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06/26/10, 8:42 PM
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#27
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<Druid Trainer>
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I don't understand the point of it. I think that saddling abilities with pure unfun and inconvenience is against Blizzard's usual style. 45s of stationary time is a lot to expect in any interesting PvE encounter. The choice of when to pop it will often wind up dominated by opportunity rather than by any healing-related need.
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06/27/10, 12:45 AM
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#28
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Von Kaiser
Orc Death Knight
Dunemaul
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So the more I think about and pour over the patch notes and discussion for cata resto, the more I think in it's current form Blizzard will be successful in changing our healing in a way, but only in the sense that instead of spamming rejuv we will spam regrowth unless we're on the move. Mix in your wild growths (depending on mana) and swiftmends and we'll be pretty formidable. Here's my line of thinking and where we could be headed and granted I know for certain alot of this is bound to change:
If Blizzard is successful in creating an environment where on average raid members spend far less time at 100% health, and in effect the initial heal of regrowth if spammed lands and overheals less, this should benefit regrowth when comparing to rejuv greatly. Granted rejuv now gets 15% instaheal, but considering Regrowth will be 1.5sec cast, probably shoot to hit 1sec hasted, we could also have regrowth up on literally everybody in the raid at once.
Now consider the fact that on top of that, each crit could sprout Efflorescence essentially giving us a free wild growth on probably 30-40% of our heals that may not heal for as much but heals EVERYONE within 15 yeards not capped at 5 people.....crazy good.
And to top it all off, we essentially will be returned 3% of our mana every 7-8 seconds on average, we could almost spam infinitely with very little mana concern.
Crit and haste values would essentially become equal as well. Crit affecting regrowth crits for more effloresence procs, and all hots critting for more HPS; Haste now increasing decreasing the time between hot ticks and effectively increasing your MP5 by a small margin for revitalization procs.
Last edited by Travaggie : 06/27/10 at 1:28 AM.
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06/27/10, 2:15 PM
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#29
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Travaggie
Crit and haste values would essentially become equal as well. Crit affecting regrowth crits for more effloresence procs, and all hots critting for more HPS; Haste now increasing decreasing the time between hot ticks and effectively increasing your MP5 by a small margin for revitalization procs.
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I agree with your conclusions about spells. It would be interesting to crunch numbers about relative values of crit vs haste, it's just difficult to do without knowing the details of how haste affects hots. My intuition is crit will actually be a lot stronger for Regrowth spam than haste, past the soft haste cap (in other words after haste reduces Regrowth to 1 second casts). This is because after the soft haste cap, haste will only improve Regrowth throughput in one way (by shortening hot ticks), while crit will continue to benefit hots in two ways (via crit hot ticks and via proccing Efflorescence more).
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06/27/10, 10:08 PM
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#30
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Rijndael
I agree with your conclusions about spells. It would be interesting to crunch numbers about relative values of crit vs haste, it's just difficult to do without knowing the details of how haste affects hots. My intuition is crit will actually be a lot stronger for Regrowth spam than haste, past the soft haste cap (in other words after haste reduces Regrowth to 1 second casts). This is because after the soft haste cap, haste will only improve Regrowth throughput in one way (by shortening hot ticks), while crit will continue to benefit hots in two ways (via crit hot ticks and via proccing Efflorescence more).
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I really don't think we're going to be seeing one second regrowths, or hitting the soft haste cap for hots in Cata. We're losing the 10% haste from GotEM, we're losing the 3% haste from Celestial Focus. I think we're losing a raid haste buff. And to top it all off, GC has stated multiple times that they let item levels inflate higher than they had intended in order to give incentive to doing hard modes. The only way I think we'll have a chance at hitting the soft haste cap in Cata is to focus every piece possible on haste and to reforge as much haste as we can on to our gear.
Though I'm not convinced at this point that that would be an entirely terrible idea to do. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but haste will still lower the GCD when you cast spells, right? Then that should mean hots will get twice the benefit of haste as they do now. There'll be the casting more of them benefit, 3 hots when you would have 2 otherwise. And there will be the ticking more often benefit, making each hot heal for more over it's duration and more often in terms of tick frequency. Twice the benefit. So I don't see how anything else will come close to the throughput bonus that haste will be giving. Ya, there's efflorescence, and that'll be nice, but still... I guess we'll just have to wait and see the numbers. Speculation only goes so far.
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