[WOTLK 4.0] Restoration Discussion - Page 50

BlitzkriegAl · 10/18/10, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by RobotChicken

Can you post the log? It could be that WoL isn't reading them right, but I didn't notice anything like that. If it is, that's a pretty big bug, maybe even to the point that it will convince me to drop my tier in favor of more Haste pieces. I'd wager if it's not benefiting from Crit it isn't from Haste either.

You can test it yourself pretty easily by not being in a party and casting rejuv on a bunch of NPCs until it procs (and the procc'd Rejuv will land on you since you're the only possible target of it).

Having just done that, it's definitely true. Proc'd rejuvs don't benefit from haste, crit, or GoTEM, but since they last 15 seconds they tick 5 times anyway.

wye · 10/18/10, 9:58 PM

From looking on my log, I confirm the proc'd Rejuvenation does not crit or haste.

How much throughput did we lost from this?

With 1016 haste rating + 5% haste raid buff and 36% crit:

Haste:
4p10 RJ: 5 ticks over 15 seconds = 0.333 ticks per second
Normal RJ: 6 ticks over 13.227 seconds = 0.454 ticks per second
4p10 RJ / normal RJ ratio throughput healing considering only haste: 0.333 / 0.454 = 0.733

Crit bonus lost: 36% * 0.5 additional healing of a crit = 18%
4p10 RJ / normal RJ ratio throughput healing considering only crit: 1 / 1.18 = 0.847

Total 4p10 RJ / normal RJ ratio throughput considering both haste and crit: 0.733 * 0.847 = 0.621

So apparently this makes the 4 pieces t10 bonus operate at about half power compared to a normal RJ.
I took the 13.227 RJ duration value from looking into my log, not from theory, so it may contain a bit of error. Let me know if I messed up the numbers or if there is a more clear way to expose the calculations.

EDIT: corrected the bonus crit healing amount in the calculations

BlitzkriegAl · 10/18/10, 10:01 PM

Other things to take into account about the proc'd Rejuv:

1) It does not benefit from Mastery. If a HoT is on someone and Rejuv jumps to that someone, the Rejuv does not do its 10%+ more healing.
2) However, the proc'd Rejuv can proc Mastery for other things. For example, if a proc'd Rejuv is on someone and I cast Regrowth on that someone, they will get the 10%+ bonus healing.

Zephram · 10/18/10, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by RobotChicken

Can you post the log? It could be that WoL isn't reading them right, but I didn't notice anything like that. If it is, that's a pretty big bug, maybe even to the point that it will convince me to drop my tier in favor of more Haste pieces. I'd wager if it's not benefiting from Crit it isn't from Haste either.

It also doesn't seem to have haste applying to it...

Here's the front 6 of H10: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

My Efflo, btw, did 622,496 healing out of 17,035,252, roughly on par with living seed

We noobed it up a bit tonight... People have some difficulty adjusting, especially our poor holydin. I'm having no issues though. My throughput is unreal... It's odd being a vastly superior tank healer to a holy pally.

EDIT: How much does this reduce the value of 4 piece? I'd think significantly... Might be better off with boomking pieces.

Zephram · 10/18/10, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegAl

Other things to take into account about the proc'd Rejuv:

1) It does not benefit from Mastery. If a HoT is on someone and Rejuv jumps to that someone, the Rejuv does not do its 10%+ more healing.
2) However, the proc'd Rejuv can proc Mastery for other things. For example, if a proc'd Rejuv is on someone and I cast Regrowth on that someone, they will get the 10%+ bonus healing.

The proc'd rejuv also cannot be over-written, which actually does hurt a bit if you're trying to roll rejuvs on that target.

• Hamlet · 10/18/10, 11:17 PM

This is nice a find. Maybe not the biggest deal since it won't matter after expansion release. Also, this doesn't ruin the 4-piece. 5 ticks instead of 6, and maybe another 20% or so from lack of crits. Even if it's worth only half what it was before, there's still no reason not to wear it.

Zephram · 10/18/10, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

This is nice a find. Maybe not the biggest deal since it won't matter after expansion release. Also, this doesn't ruin the 4-piece. 5 ticks instead of 6, and maybe another 20% or so from lack of crits. Even if it's worth only half what it was before, there's still no reason not to wear it.

4 ticks, since haste doesn't work either :-(

I'll mess with it and see what the difference is between it and a normal rejuv tick, including mastery and such.

EDIT: I noticed the tick rate when it proc'd on me in the raid, but wasn't paying enough attention to see incoming healing from it.

EDIT 2: Mastery does not apply, but it seems to use the old rejuv coefficient. It's equal to "old" rejuv without the extended length in all regards it seems.

wye · 10/19/10, 12:14 AM

I guess it depends on the level of haste starvation you are with your gear.

For me, replacing 2 crit set pieces with haste non-set pieces allowed me to re-gem from haste to INT heavily while still keeping above 1016 haste.

In the end I gained +130 INT. Not a small bonus imo.

Feya · 10/19/10, 3:00 AM

Originally Posted by Ravelvan

You can actually tell exactly which druid's Effloresence is healing whom by looking at the combat log. Just use the following pairs of events:

10/13 20:36:31.570  SPELL_SUMMON,0x0600000003222927,"Navlevar",0x511,0xF130A9D700000176,"Effloresence",0xa28,81262,"Efflorescence",0x8
...
10/13 20:36:36.454  SPELL_HEAL,0xF130A9D700000176,"Effloresence",0x2111,0x0600000003222927,"Navlevar",0x511,81269,"Efflorescence",0x8,823,823,0,nil

Essentially you just treat it like a pet. Recount also shows this just fine.

Thanks to you I've made significant progress on my modding efforts. It was a very interesting reverse lookup.

On other news though, after finishing the mod and testing it for a duration with a few druids. I noticed that Efflorescence seems to vary in the number of ticks it casts, between 6 or 7. No gearing changes/procs/buffs seem to be passed to our mysteriously quiet pet, and thus I've been unable to determine why 6 procs occur sometimes, and 7 others. All of the haste information I can see on the web mentions nothing about this spell.

Does anyone have any info they can shed on this behavior?

Feya · 10/19/10, 4:02 AM

Originally Posted by wye

I guess it depends on the level of haste starvation you are with your gear.

For me, replacing 2 crit set pieces with haste non-set pieces allowed me to re-gem from haste to INT heavily while still keeping above 1016 haste.

In the end I gained +130 INT. Not a small bonus imo.

I realize that 1016 hits a significant turning point in our haste, but it seems a lot of people are focusing on that number purely to find a target to aim for. Many regulars have posted that Hastes' value is not purely reflected in just one spell, Rejuvenation, but in all of our HoTs. A significant amount of my healing has come from Lifebloom, and I expect the trend will carry over into Cataclysm raiding. Lifebloom also greatly benefits from Haste, and while the ticks may be for less healing done then Rejuvenation, they are occurring on a target of significant interest to all healers, the main tank (well...it should be on him).

So I am posing the figurative question, are we really suppose to stop at X value of haste?

qwweer · 10/19/10, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by Feya

I realize that 1016 hits a significant turning point in our haste, but it seems a lot of people are focusing on that number purely to find a target to aim for. <...>
So I am posing the figurative question, are we really suppose to stop at X value of haste?

Next possible breakpoints would be 1249 for 1 more tick of livebloom or 1405 for GCD cap and 1 more tick of Rg and WG. Both values seem to not be very realistic, and Lb doesn't really benefit from haste caps since it usually never ticks for full duration and gets refreshed.

Kluian · 10/19/10, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by alinna

After going through my druid's raid log from last night, I'm not seeing any crit ticks for the Rejuvenations procced from the T10 bonus. Is this a bug or intended behavior?

I was wondering why my rejuv crit rate was substantially lower than my expected crit.

Originally Posted by Feya

Thanks to you I've made significant progress on my modding efforts. It was a very interesting reverse lookup.

On other news though, after finishing the mod and testing it for a duration with a few druids. I noticed that Efflorescence seems to vary in the number of ticks it casts, between 6 or 7. No gearing changes/procs/buffs seem to be passed to our mysteriously quiet pet, and thus I've been unable to determine why 6 procs occur sometimes, and 7 others. All of the haste information I can see on the web mentions nothing about this spell.

Does anyone have any info they can shed on this behavior?

This is probably why they changed Efflorescence to "over 7.5 seconds" on Beta so that you always get 7 ticks if you stand in the full duration.

Lohkan · 10/19/10, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by qwweer

Next possible breakpoints would be 1249 for 1 more tick of livebloom or 1405 for GCD cap and 1 more tick of Rg and WG. Both values seem to not be very realistic, and Lb doesn't really benefit from haste caps since it usually never ticks for full duration and gets refreshed.

While plugging these haste numbers into Hamlets spreadsheet, here is what I got.

With 1020 haste(what I have right now) The bonus HPS via haste is 1.22 HPS Bonus.

While moving up to 1249 Haste, the bonus skyrockets to a bonus of 194.08 HPS gain but a -14,87 MP5 loss.

Finally, putting in 1405 Haste, the bonus comes out to 734.40 HPS gain and according to the Spreadsheet, 0.01 MP5 gain it looks like. I'm not sure if he implemented these haste numbers and mp5 losses and gains for testing, if so, it's looking like at 1405 haste, the amount of HPS you gain is enormous. Just something to think about.

complexxL9 · 10/19/10, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by qwweer

Next possible breakpoints would be 1249 for 1 more tick of livebloom or 1405 for GCD cap and 1 more tick of Rg and WG. Both values seem to not be very realistic, and Lb doesn't really benefit from haste caps since it usually never ticks for full duration and gets refreshed.

To my understanding even if it does not tick for full duration the ticks occur more often therefore haste benefits LB.

Gerronimo · 10/19/10, 8:53 PM

I'm interested in thoughts on the nourish refreshing lifebloom mechanic. I realise that at this gear point it's easier to just refresh it manually, however cata will change this.

With 250-300 latency (aus lag), it's nigh impossible to refresh it with nourish accurately. It seems that you have to start casting ~3s before lb is due to run out if you want to refresh it with any reliability. This leads me to think it's double dipping on latency when deciding if the nourish cast refreshed the bloom or not. Has anyone else seen this in practice? Would anyone with a better idea of the cast mechanics be able to shed some light?