Cataclysm Balance Theorycraft and Spreadsheet Thread - Page 8

Erdluf · 09/19/10, 8:10 AM

Coefficients from Simcraft

Spell	New	Old
Deep Healing	2.5
Entangling Roots	0.1
Entangling Roots	0.1
Healing Touch	0.806
Hurricane	0.095
Insect Swarm	0.26
Lifebloom	0.0234
Lifebloom	0.355
Moonfire	0.18
Moonfire	0.18
Nourish	0.266	0.355
Razor Claws	2.5
Regrowth	0.367
Regrowth	0.037
Rejuvenation	0.134
Savage Defender	4
Starfall	0.127
Starfall	0.247
Starsurge	1.535
Sunfire	0.18	new
Sunfire	0.18	new
Swiftmend	0.536
Total Eclipse	1.5
Tranquility	0.398
Tranquility	0.068
Typhoon	0.097
Wild Growth	0.042
Wild Mushroom	0.928	.286
Wrath	0.714

Differences by eyeball, so I might have missed one somewhere.

Edit: Not quite enough for us to use WM in a single-target rotation if Detonate requires a GCD. If mushrooms self-detonate (or if Detonate is off the GCD) they are stronger than Wrath.

For AoE (and assuming Detonate on GCD), spreadsheet shows IS with a larger DPET, unless WM hits seven or more targets, of course IS is only that good if the target lives for 18s.

• Hamlet · 09/19/10, 2:01 PM

I'm showing WM as stronger than Wrath even if you need 4 GCD's for 3 hits, assuming WM is affected by all the basic damage buffs. This is after fixing the coefficient to the one you listed above. Note if that if you check this in my sheet from yesterday, you have to fix a typo in the WM damage box (change a - to a +).

e: few other things:
--If Shooting Stars procs during Starsurge cast, it's wasted. Basically same issue as the old 4T8 bug, albeit much less serious.
--Eclipse won't be canceled on a Starsurge cast. If you cross 0 with SS, you get one more cast of W or SF.

• Hamlet · 09/19/10, 3:55 PM

Glyph of Starfire is wonky now that MF ticks on a 2s period. With one extension, I get 10 or 11 ticks. With two, 12 or 13. With three, 14 or 15 (!) ticks (i.e. 30s worth of ticks, even though the duration should be 27). It's hard to tell what's going on; I think that depending on exactly when in the tick cycle the SF hits, the rounding effect in the DoT refresh computation sneaks in an extra tick.

Starfox · 09/19/10, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

--Eclipse won't be canceled on a Starsurge cast. If you cross 0 with SS, you get one more cast of W or SF.

SS is just fucked, it always gains 15 solar and when it crits you gain 8 lunar from a ghost euphoria talent >:<

• Hamlet · 09/19/10, 4:16 PM

Look further up--if you proc Solar and then cast SS without breaking combat, it will generate Lunar.

• Hamlet · 09/19/10, 5:43 PM

Ok, sheet update for today.

--Currently using non-smart Starsurge because it's what's there. Won't be hard to change back. Used this as a chance to really refine the "Starsurge only outside Eclipse" option.
--I haven't removed the machinery for stretch cycles. I really want to since it makes the rotations page a giant horrible mess and I'm sure nobody besides me can read through all the nested IF's. I really doubt they'll be necessary again, but everything is working for the moment anyway so I didn't do it yet.
--But now that it's looking like Standard Eclipses will be it, I added some detail to those. It now takes account of the fact that if you don't SS during Eclipse, you get precisely 5 Starfires in a Lunar and 8 Wraths in a Solar. It also takes account of the fact that you can SS once at the end of Lunar or Solar without losing a nuke (this is actually what the "SS Outside Eclipse" model does now, so it's SS's are still Eclipsed).
--Regardless of all of the above, SS Outside Eclipse only still is only around as good as straight SS on cooldown. SS simply does too much damage to not cast, even if it shortens Eclipse.
--Better modeling of Glyph of Starfire. MF on cooldown still looks best though (because MF'ing on each Eclipse still leaves half of them unextended), and the Glyph still looks weak.
--Added correct haste breakpoints for IS/MF (both are now (6+Genesis) ticks base, so they're the same). No extended Moonfire yet, because its refresh mechanics are really messy.
--Fixed Int to crit conversion.
--Fixed WM coefficient.

aceofsween · 09/20/10, 4:11 AM

Starsurge also doesn't have that big of a change on Energy. Compared to Wrath, you gain 1.666 more energy, but you do quite a bit more damage. Something that we might want to start considering is the most effective use of Eclipse Energy, or damage per Eclipse Energy, when deciding what to cast during Eclipse.

As it stands though I don't believe that's difficult to figure out: Force of Nature/Starfall > Moonfire/Insect Swarm > Starsurge > Wrath/Starfire. This is all inherently obvious, but it's a slightly different perspective (managing Eclipse Energy as a resource). I think this makes the framework for our strongest rotation during Eclipse.

Now, outside of Eclipse it remains to be seen. There may be a point where it's better to wait to refresh Moonfire/Insect Swarm until proccing Eclipse but I can't make that assumption just yet. It also remains to be seen how Moonfire will interact with Solar Eclipse. Do active Moonfires on targets become Sunfires? If not, will Sunfire overwrite Moonfire? I suspect it will, but it remains to be seen.

Edit to add:

Taking my Energy efficiency theory one step further, Starsurge is in a very awkward position. Outside of Eclipse, it has lower energy per second generation than Wrath and Starfire thanks to Euphoria. Wrath and Starfire generate on average 8.333 energy per second while Starsurge generates 7.5. However, during Eclipse, Starsurge generates more energy than either Wrath or Starfire (which only have a 6.666 energy/second rate during Eclipse). Unless Starsurge goes back to being smart-energy, it will always be less beneficial from an Energy management standpoint to cast. I find this problematic because you will want a lower Energy generation during Eclipse, and a higher Energy generation outside of it, and Starsurge fits into neither of those. The only exception is off a Shooting Stars proc, where it generates a nice 10 energy/second since it becomes an instant cast, but even then it's only beneficial from this standpoint outside of Eclipse. I guess it's just more evidence to the pile that Starsurge should go back to being a smart-energy effect.

Energy efficiency is only going to become important if the gains for being efficient result in higher DPS. Even now, I don't see that being the case.

Erdluf · 09/20/10, 8:17 AM

Astrylian wrote a very detailed description of Wild Mushrooms in the Bear Theorycraft thread (1st post). Main thing that caught my eye: "0.5sec cast, 0.5sec GCD".

There are multiple reports that WM can crit. I can't find anything that says if Moonkin are getting 200% crits. A screenshot by Lodis at TMR shows a crit for 29k on a training dummy.

you might be able to reach that with 50% crits (raid buffed, almost 7k SP, Solar Eclipse), but I don't know if the beta gear will get you that far.

It seems pretty clear that numbers will have to change. They can't have people entering BG's at 80k health, when two stealthed moonkin can set up an invisible AoE trap that instantly hits for more than that (and snares any survivors).

aceofsween · 09/20/10, 8:47 AM

They're only invisible to my knowledge after they're fully grown... correct? Not that I disagree with your point at all. It would make Moonkins incredibly deadly on the go, especially if it can be cast while moving like the old Shadowfury, which is the only other .5 sec spell I've ever seen.

• Hamlet · 09/20/10, 10:15 AM

That just makes the potential DPET of WM even more hilarious.

One thing I just noticed is that it doesn't actually say anywhere that they do Nature damage. So maybe they're unaffected by Eclipse and Moonfury. At this point though that's not nearly enough to change the problem.

aceofsween · 09/20/10, 11:54 AM

The screen shot above says it does Nature damage?

• Hamlet · 09/20/10, 12:03 PM

Oh, hmm, so it does. I just looked at all the spell tooltips and doesn't say the damage type like most spells do. Anyway, regardless, it's still just as crazy as we thought it was.

aceofsween · 09/20/10, 1:39 PM

Definitely in agreement there...

I mean I promise I won't mind if they want to give me a .5 sec spell that does nearly 30000 damage.

Erdluf · 09/21/10, 9:42 AM

Spreadsheet, Nukes tab, Cell L30 (SS Average damage including Eclipse bonus), has

... EclipseMastery*IF(SSAlways,SolarUptime+LunarUptime,IF(SSInEclipse,1,1)) ...

and I'm pretty sure that last '1' should be a zero.

Two minor requests:
- Add roots to the "other" page.
- Show the DPS scaling from 1 smart energy per second (passive). Knowing that number makes it easier to evaluate slightly modified rotations, without actually writing the rotation code.

Note that with ~60s cycles, Thorns could be a very good "filler" to see if you got a Euphoria->Eclipse proc, or if you need to cast another pre-eclipse nuke. Of course when casting Wrath, you'd need to be very close to the boss or you won't have time to react even with a Thorns cast (maybe use Thorns+WM-placement, if WM stays strong).

Erdluf · 09/21/10, 3:41 PM

My theorycraft is saying MF-spam is still a winner under permanent Solar Eclipse.

Some values from the sheet (I think I changed SS to on-cooldown, but little or nothing else).

DPS: 15681
Net MP5: -2758 = 3301 - 6060 (Note Euphoria is included in the 6060, not in the 3301)

Time spent on each spell

Spell Breakdown	Cast Time
Starfire	32.9%
Wrath	32.4%
Moonfire	7.8%
Insect Swarm	7.8%
Starsurge	11.7%
Starfall	2.1%
Force of Nature	0.7%
Thorns	4.7%

Damage and mana numbers for several spells, I added the MPS column

	DPET	w/Eclipse+NT	DPM	MPS
Wrath:	6330	10278	4.71	2181
Starsurge:	10915	17722	12.66	1399
Insect Swarm:	38025	74086	46.97	1577
MF Dot DPS (No NT):	1939	3148
Moonfire (DD only, 3x LS):	4780	7761	218.40	36
Force of Nature:	62442	71808	37.00	1941
Thorns: 14250 16388 3.29 4988
Starfall (one target):	31411	50999	6.38	7991

Now I combine those into a 100% Solar Eclipse cycle (using Lunar Shower as a filler).

Note that for every second spent on SS, you can spend a second on Wrath, and still be energy-positive. This is based on reports that SS is always generating Solar Energy (it is smart, 1/2 of the time).

Solar Shower	Cast Time	DPET	DPS Contrib	MPS	MPS Contrib
Insect Swarm	7.8%	74086	5783	1577	123
Starsurge	11.7%	17722	2068	1399	163
Wrath	11.7%	10278	1199	2181	254
Starfall	2.1%	31411	651	7991	166
Force of Nature	0.7%	71808	490	1941	13
Thorns	4.7	16388	771	4988	235
MF DD	61.4%	7761	4765	36	22
MF DoT	Free		3148

Totals		DPS:	18875	MPS:	976
				MP5:	4881

DPS: 18875
Net Mana: -1580 = 3301 - 4881

Note: The table above doesn't make any adjustments for reduced Nature's Torrent (1 per minute instead of two per minute). However the original spreadsheet said that removing the NT talent would cost only 924 DPS, meaning this rotation still looks better.