Cataclysm Bear Theorycraft

♦ Carebare · 09/20/10, 6:43 AM

This thread is for one specific purpose. Please read the lead post in its entirety to avoid infractions. If you are looking for a less mathy general discussion of Feral Cataclysm stuff, you will find it here.

Gurrshael · 09/20/10, 8:31 PM

All these numbers are for 85 level tauren druid without talents as they show on character sheet.

Base stats:

Race	Str	Agi	Stam	Int	Spr	Health	Mana
Tauren	101	85	107	152	175	42399	20635

Crit Chance: 7.74% (corresponds to your base crit chance + agi / 324.85)
Mastery: 8 (non-functional without specialization)
Hit Chance: 0%
Miss table:

lvl	miss
85	5
86	5.5
87	6
88	8

Armor: 0
Dodge: 5.3%

Dodge ratio:
85 agi ... 5.30%
2187 agi ... 13.55%.

Seems like it follows this formula:
Dodge = 5 + (agi -10) * 254.787878

Starfox · 09/21/10, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Gurrshael

All these numbers are for 85 level tauren druid without talents as they show on character sheet.

Base stats:

Race	Str	Agi	Stam	Int	Spr	Health	Mana
Tauren	101	85	107	152	175	42399	20635

Crit Chance: 7.74% (corresponds to your base crit chance + agi / 324.85)

No clue where you got your basestats from, but my lvl 85 tauren druid does not have only 107 stamina w/o items/spec
Here are the values, also did racechange to troll to got those base values

Race	Str	Agi	Stam	Int	Spr	Health	Mana
Tauren	101	85	227	152	175	42399	20635
Troll	97	91	226	152	174	41613	20635

Gurrshael · 09/22/10, 2:45 AM

Originally Posted by Starfox

No clue where you got your basestats from, but my lvl 85 tauren druid does not have only 107 stamina w/o items/spec
Here are the values, also did racechange to troll to got those base values

Race	Str	Agi	Stam	Int	Spr	Health	Mana
Tauren	101	85	227	152	175	42399	20635
Troll	97	91	226	152	174	41613	20635

That's really strange. I rechecked the numbers and they are correct for my character. You can see for yourself:

When compared to the base stamina of other races, yours is more than two times greater. Did you copy your own character or was it a premade?

Astrylian · 09/22/10, 4:38 AM

Indeed, Gurrshael's numbers seem to match in-game. Starfox, really curious to see how you're seeing 227/226sta for the horde druids. It doesn't seem to be a case of transferring over, as my main is transferred over and then leveled to 85, and I also have an 85 premade, and their naked untalented stats match. I've updated the table in the OP with the new data (I got a Worgen Druid premade, but it crashes on login every time, so still looking for 85 druid worgen base stats). Note that the health/mana in that table is *without* health/mana from sta/int.

EDIT: One point of analysis about the base stats: After removing the health/mana from sta/int, you can see that Tauren have 5% more base health, as expected, from their racial. But Night Elves also have 15% more base mana, which is unexpected as far as I know.

EDIT 2: Got a Worgen working. Confirmed normal base HP/MP for Worgen, still 39533HP/18635MP. Also found a mistake in my base stats for NE, fixed that. NEs have the same base mana has everyone else.

Starfox · 09/22/10, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Gurrshael

That's really strange. I rechecked the numbers and they are correct for my character. You can see for yourself:

When compared to the base stamina of other races, yours is more than two times greater. Did you copy your own character or was it a premade?

Argh, mining char and toughness is +120 sta, sorry >:<

Sadirin · 09/22/10, 11:45 PM

Faerie Fire
Damage: 1+AP*0.15
Threat: Bear*(Dmg+774)
(Unable to test 1v3 stacks due to Feral Aggression not working)

It finally works and I did a very small test run.

2/2 Feral Agression (3 stacks of FFF applied with one cast of FFF) + Omen + Recount
6445 ap
Hit: 968 Damage => 3800 Threat
Crit: 1648 => 5200 threat

As it seems Feral Aggression only applies 1 stack of threat and 3 stacks of the armor reduction with each application of FFF

Right now:
Fury Swipes: yellow damage, no rage generated
Fury Swipe Crits: yellow damage, no rage from Primal Fury (submitted as a bug)

Satrion · 09/27/10, 1:32 AM

In the latest Build (13066) the bear threat multiplier was changed to 2.00 instead of 2.0735. Also the extra threat on FF is still being affected by the number of points in Feral Aggression. With 0 points it is 774, with 1 point it is 822, and with 2 points it is 870. The number of stacks has no affect on the threat. Another interesting change is that the initial damage on Lacerate is now modified by mangle. Since this is a totally undocumented change (as far as I know) it might be a bug.

tangedyn · 09/29/10, 2:54 AM

I've started work on a simulator, and the information here is useful. Hope to be able to share something soon, but at the moment I need a model for incoming rage... does anyone have information on how incoming rage is calculated yet? Unfortunately I don't have a beta account

Satrion · 09/29/10, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

I've started work on a simulator, and the information here is useful. Hope to be able to share something soon, but at the moment I need a model for incoming rage... does anyone have information on how incoming rage is calculated yet? Unfortunately I don't have a beta account

Well I have good news and bad news. The good news is that rage from white swings is like clockwork. The bad news is rage gained from incoming damage seems to be pretty complicated and unpredictable.

All white hits and glances (regardless of how much they hit for) give 16 rage. A crit gives 21 rage (16 from the hit plus 5 extra for the crit). Misses give 0 rage. On the target dummy, a Parry also gave 16 rage. I didn't have a chance to test that one on a real mob, so don't write that in stone. GC has said before that target dummies sometimes have strange mechanics that you can't find anywhere else.

For incoming damage, rage generation does seem to scale somewhat with how hard it hits, but it seems to still be a bit random. Any damage taken less than about 2k will give 1 rage. That means each dot tick, each spell, each melee hit gives one rage if it is less than 2k damage or so. Once it gets higher than that, sometimes it's 2, sometimes it's 1. Over about 5k I was getting 2 rage very consistently and got 3 rage once, so it seems like it continues to scale as the hits get bigger. I was doing this without a healer, so I didn't go after mobs that hit any harder than that.

Dodges and misses are also a bit strange. At very low damage, misses usually give 0 rage, but once in a while they give 1 and dodges always give 3 (with natural reaction talented). At around the 2k mark, misses give either 1 or 0 rage at about a 50:50 ratio. Higher than that misses usually give 1 and dodges usually give 4. I also got 5 rage a couple times from a dodge. It almost seems like it takes what it would have given you if you had been hit and subtracts 1 for a miss, and a dodge gives you the same as a miss+3. That is very much a guess on my part and it will take a lot more testing to nail it down for sure.

That's all I can tell you for now. I'll try to do more testing on incoming damage and outgoing Parries when I get time and maybe when I can bribe a healer to come help me out.

tangedyn · 09/29/10, 5:58 AM

Thanks, I have enough to go on for now.. at least for the second tank on LDW!

P.S. Yellow hits = 0 rage, crits = 5 rage, is that correct?

kalbear · 09/29/10, 11:20 AM

My understanding of incoming rage was that it scales with the amount of damage that you can take; in other words, if you have 100k health and take 2k damage, that's probably on the threshold of 0/1 rage. You'll need to take something on the order of 10k/20k to get a clearer idea. The formula is likely linear with the linear factor being C * inc damage/stam, where C is some small value. Given 2k hits giving 1 rage, 5k hits giving 2/3, and assuming 100k health, C should be:

5k/100k * C = 2.5
C = 1/20 / 2.5 or 50

So 50 * inc hit/stamina is likely close.

Satrion · 09/29/10, 1:46 PM

I agree that stam (or at least level) must factor in. I forgot to mention that all the testing I did was with a level 85 premade with about 100k health.

There is definitely some kind of random element to it though. I would sometimes get 1 rage from a ~3k hit and then get 2 rage from a ~2.2k hit. My best guess right now from the limited testing I did is that it works similarly to how resistance does now. Getting hit harder increases your chances for more rage per hit and it probably has thresh holds where you are guaranteed at least X and no more than Y.

So still to do:

1) Test for when a mob dodges or parries a bear
2) See if rage from incoming damage scales from the percentage of max health or from absolute damage
3) Figure out the random element from incoming damage, misses, and dodges
4) Try to find accurate cut off points for more rage (if they exist)

tangedyn · 09/30/10, 6:19 AM

Hi, I have created a preliminary spreadsheet to calculate damage, threat and TPR. Stats are based on the pre-made character. Vengeance isn't factored in but all the relevant talents and glyphs are.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...Rc3V5ekE&hl=en

Let me know if you spot any silly mistakes in there, I'm starting work on the Simulator based on the formulas here.

tangedyn · 09/30/10, 10:42 AM

Hi, anyone in beta able to do a quick test for me?
If I lacerate twice in a row, do I get 5x 2stack ticks, or 1x 1stack tick + 5x 2stack ticks?

Thanks