[WOTLK 4.0] Balance Discussion - Page 13

Psychedelics · 10/23/10, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by Pumbaa

This is probably obvious to most of you, but you can go Cat Form and use Cower. -10% threat right there, 10sec CD.

You've got to be in melee range to use Cower, which is usually fairly inconvenient for a balance druid.

Pumbaa · 10/23/10, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by Psychedelics

You've got to be in melee range to use Cower, which is usually fairly inconvenient for a balance druid.

As is popping out of form to use Thorns on a tank. But you can't ignore an option and ask for a better one just because it is "inconvenient"

Psychedelics · 10/23/10, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pumbaa

As is popping out of form to use Thorns on a tank. But you can't ignore an option and ask for a better one just because it is "inconvenient"

Popping out of form to use Thorns on a tank isn't inconvenient for a balance druid, seeing as though we do not have to do that.

Mews · 10/24/10, 8:26 AM

Irregardless, dropping form to cast any non-form ability is not analogous to using Cower; 3 GCDs - maybe 4 with Dash - and moving into/out of melee range is far too disruptive and unintuitive play. Yes it's an option, but it's just far from practical and bad design if we are intended to use it.
Not to mention that ranged have a threat ceiling of 130%, where melee has 110% - Using Cower above 110% threat WILL get you killed.

I think it's just a folly of Hybrid DPS - Rogues, Mages, Locks and Hunters are the only classes with aggro drops of any real significance. Beyond that, it's all incremental (Wind shear, Salv, Pain sup) and is a part of all of DPSers list of things to watch.

In 4.0, I only had trouble with aggro with Paladins (When I wasn't just blowing up mobs) and I could put that down to inexperience with their new combat system. I have no idea about Beta though.

Starfox · 10/24/10, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Gogge

Some melee classes/forms have innate threat modifiers, e.g Rogues/Cat is -29%, Warrior Battle stance and DK Blood/Unholy is -20%, so going Cat and using Cower will most likely not kill you.

This affects threat generated, not threat accumulated before switching to cat, so this will probably kill you.

Hoedown · 10/24/10, 2:29 PM

So frustrating, at what point do we consider wearing 2 pc T10 and filling the rest with hand-picked BiS items? Languish doing 2.5% of my damage...makes my 4 pc seem retarded. Hate being stuck with crit items on a couple set pieces when they could be upgraded to Haste items and surpassing that 2.5% set bonus. Anyone else getting the same mediocre results with Languish?

Psychedelics · 10/24/10, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hoedown

Anyone else getting the same mediocre results with Languish?

I can attest to that. It looks like our 4 piece bonus isn't that great anymore. I don't remember what the average ticks have been for me on test dummy runs, but I do remember that the numbers were extremely low.

Gogge · 10/25/10, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Starfox

This affects threat generated, not threat accumulated before switching to cat, so this will probably kill you.

You are right on threat values not changing on stance/form change. But you can be in melee range with more than 110% threat as long as you don't do anything that causes threat. So being just below 130% threat at range and going to melee range will not make you gain aggro. When trying this in raids I didn't gain aggro when using cower at about 120% threat in melee range, but the tanks were still generating threat so it's possible I dropped to just below 110%.

So, grabbing a warrior today and doing a quick test to see how it works:

Confirming that you can be above 110% in melee range when not generating threat (nothing new). But I also noted that using cower above 120% does give you aggro, as you'll be above 110% threat in melee after using it.

So no, for reasons other than my original comment, this probably won't get you killed. If you know what you're doing.

Arythorn · 10/25/10, 10:44 AM

I'm thinking that if there are persistent threat issues, casting thorns on tank on cooldown would be the way to go, rather than a last ditch effort on cower. Something like:

#showtooltip thorns
/cast [target=mouseover,help][target=targettarget,help][target=player] Thorns

would accomplish that without losing target. That should help threat as well as output reasonable damage as well (on live anyway -- apparently nerfed on beta).

Mjoedgaard · 10/25/10, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hoedown

So frustrating, at what point do we consider wearing 2 pc T10 and filling the rest with hand-picked BiS items? Languish doing 2.5% of my damage...makes my 4 pc seem retarded. Hate being stuck with crit items on a couple set pieces when they could be upgraded to Haste items and surpassing that 2.5% set bonus. Anyone else getting the same mediocre results with Languish?

In BiS or close too, there is no chance you will get an extra 2,5% dps by dropping t10x4 and go with offparts.

• Hamlet · 10/25/10, 11:22 AM

On live right now, when Thorns is still not nerfed, I wouldn't hesitate to cast it a lot, esp. when threat is an issue. It helps the whole raid and is not a significant DPS loss anyway. I would definitely make a habit of applying it during any AoE pickup (Halion adds are great example, although if I recall they were nerfed prett hard last week).

As far as a macro, I found it most convenient to target it [@target,help][@targettarget,help], so I could manually target a raid member, otherwise the person tanking my current target.

Hoedown · 10/25/10, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

As far as a macro, I found it most convenient to target it [@target,help][@targettarget,help], so I could manually target a raid member, otherwise the person tanking my current target.

I've always used this type of macro if I'm designated to a task requiring target:

#showtooltip Thorns
/focus [button:1]
/cast [button:1] Thorns [button:2,target=focus] Thorns

Just sets the focus target with your left mouse click and casts thorns. Then any time i want to reapply i right click without losing target on my dps target. I use it for a ton of spells across many classes. Works awesome for CCing targets without losing focus on dps target.

Hoedown · 10/25/10, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mjoedgaard

In BiS or close too, there is no chance you will get an extra 2,5% dps by dropping t10x4 and go with offparts.

So if I can get 200 more points of haste taking me from 1206 haste to 1406 haste, the extra dot tick and faster move through the eclipse bar wouldn't equal 2.5% dps gain? I'm thinking there has to be a break point for that to happen. I'll see if I can run some numbers on this, I'm just horrible with sims.

• Hamlet · 10/25/10, 2:53 PM

I'm seeing the set bonus as pretty weak, as people are saying, around 2%. But I don't see a reason not to use it. The set pieces are 277 items with caster stats, so a set bonus is basically free DPS. I highly doubt that trading crit for haste in two slots can make up for it.

Mjoedgaard · 10/25/10, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hoedown

So if I can get 200 more points of haste taking me from 1206 haste to 1406 haste, the extra dot tick and faster move through the eclipse bar wouldn't equal 2.5% dps gain? I'm thinking there has to be a break point for that to happen. I'll see if I can run some numbers on this, I'm just horrible with sims.

If you infact can get 200 more haste but dont lose crit it would be a dps gain for you.
according to wrathcalc plotting your stats in with full raids buff, 4 set bonus is around 350 dps, with each point of haste been around 3 dps and crit been 2.4 dps.