@Selendis
Thanks for your comments and they are very valid and i had have the same concerns that you express

One base thing that we need to considere in our priority list is how our DoTs and Eclipse durations are affecting each other, not only at the present but also the next decision point.
DoTs: 18 seconds
Eclipse Uptime: 13-15 Seconds
Eclipse procc -> Eclipse procc : 19-22 seconds.
STARFALL CD : 40-45 seconds


Starfall: Yes your logic is better and is in fact the one i currently is using. It does not affect that much since my STARFALL actually CD is 40-45 seconds and it means that it will take 4-5 cast before i am missing LUNAR.

DoTs: The important thing here is that we need to take in consideration not only the current scenario when we refresh or clip but also how it will impact on the next DoT refresh. Your example regarind not refreshing the DoT if it is 1 nuke before proccing eclipse is the tricky one.

What is important in our rotation is how our eclipse times and dots duration are affecting each other.
Eclipse up time is 13-15 seconds while going from one eclipse to the other is around 20 seconds. That means the cast of the dots is occuring a bit earlier in the eclipse cycle each time. So we are often not casting the dot on the same eclipse energy.

Also as posted before if we cast a DoT directly following a eclipse the dot will not get buffed with the eclipse. That means if we do not refresh the DoT if it is one nuke left meanst that we do have a downtime to at least a STARFALL/WRATH combo. That is 3 seconds minimum that we let the DoT be dropped. Since DoT duration is 18 seconds and the Eclipse is 13-15 it means the other option is to clip the dot by 3-4 seconds. But that should be compated to a 3 seconds downtime. And since DoT is our highest DPET should we not try to have 100% uptime?

The other aspect if that of we force the DoT to be cast at the start of the eclipse it means that since DoT duration is 18 seconds and the Eclipse to Eclipse is around 20 seconds it means that we are again delaying the DoT at the when the DoT expires next time. Assuming that we have a duration of the DoT that are 2 seconds less then the Eclipse cycle means that we are now in a rotation where we always are delaying until we are lucky with proccs and we are having a Eclipse that are longer or shorter and we again can refresh the DoT right before the last tick.

If we do as i am trying to make sure that the DoT is refreshed if it is less then 3 seconds left when we are 1 cast before leaving the eclispse. That means that we are having a "buffer" before we need to clip the DoT again.

This "strategy" how we interact the DoT with the eclipse is the tricky part of our rotation as far as i am concerned.

@GotlandsUgglan

I agree, DoT length interaction with Eclipse is what matters most. 100% DoT uptime and casting eclipsed DoTs are the basic goals. However, I think casting DoTs during eclipses can be simplified by generalizing duration remaining instead of working directly with eclipse uptime and downtime. I think they'll draw the same conclusions eventually, but I don't feel like we could accurately predict eclipse downtime well enough to base a rotation around it. If you have logic that works with eclipse uptime/downtime, I'd be interested in seeing it because I can't figure out how it would work.

I wanted to try to clarify one thing about that. I'm not saying that we should cast a DoT that's about to be buffed by eclipse (the on-clipse DoT we'll say) before the eclipse actually procs when we're at 100 energy. What I meant to say was that if the duration left on the on-clipse DoT is greater than 7-8 seconds, then the DoT that isn't going to be buffed by the upcoming eclipse (the off-clipse DoT) should be refreshed even if it doesn't get the NG proc from the eclipse that's about to start. This is due to the way the NG buff will play out over the next two eclipses with 100% DoT uptime (if you didn't refresh it you're sacrificing at least one Wrath cast of DoT downtime). Overall, I think this is around an extra 100-150 DPS.

Like you said, DoTs that are about to be buffed by eclipse should not be refreshed as the eclipse procs because they won't get the buff, and then you'd have to clip a DoT at 7 or 8 seconds if you wanted to try to use it at the end of the eclipse, which is a DPSc loss. You can (usually) refresh the about-to-be-buffed DoT one cast before the eclipse though and be okay clipping it at 4 or 5 seconds at the end (not ideal, but better than DoT downtime).



Eclipse doesn't end until after Wrath/SF/SS hits the target, but those spells gain the buff from eclipse when they are cast

I just tested this on the dummy and it looks like Wrath still gains the bonus from Eclipse when it leaves the model, even though it doesn't deduct energy until it hits (looked to be the same for that split second after Starfire too). This means that if we have to clip DoTs at the end of eclipse, we should do so after the final Wrath/SF/SS for minimum clipping. That also means, at max range, we can actually cast IS while two Wraths are in the air and still get the eclipse bonus on both Wraths and IS (can someone else confirm?).



Did some work on whether it's possible to justify two solar IS in the same eclipse (short answer is kind of but not really)

For it to be worth casting IS at the start of an eclipse, and then again before eclipse ends, in terms of DPSc:
1.37 * (18 - x) + 1.37 * 18 > 1.37 * 18 + 1.00 * 18
x < 4.86

So, IS duration would have to be less than 4.86 seconds before the Wrath hits to justify casting it a second time. Wrath and SS nine times (seven to get to 0-10 energy, and then two in the air) at a 1.2 sec casting time (my cast time with NG) would account for 10.8 seconds, so I'd have to get 2.4 seconds out of other spells. Those will most often be the following spells without losing tons of DPS:
-Sunfire refresh
-FoN
-Thorns

This is cutting it really close, but in an actual raid, I am much more likely to have to move and spam a Sunfire, or Typhoon or Starfall because adds popped out, etc., which would give a little more grace period.

The problem is like GotlandsUgglan said though, I don't have a good way to plan the rotation far enough ahead to make sure that casting IS is the first thing I need to do in solar without clipping or losing DoT uptime (which would defeat the point of the minimal DPSc gain from casting a second solar IS). All I have is what to do when I find myself in a random situation.



Here are the current priorities for the best next cast as I understand it (-100 is lunar eclipse, 100 is solar)

All energy values assume energy prediction (they include the energy you'll get from the current cast)

I actually did a thorough check, on Blizz forums, MMO-Champion, blue post trackers etc but I can't find a single post or statement made by Blizzard regarding the rebirth issue.

I think Sunfire should be buffed by NG instead of IS during Solar if possible

The way I understand it, haste does nothing for DoTs until you hit enough haste to gain an extra tick. Casting a DoT while under NG usually means +1 tick on that DoT (unless you're haste is ridiculously low, like below 300).

I think we would want to prioritize casting IS before Sunfire during Solar to get the extra tick on the bigger hitting Sunfire DoT. With IS expiring before MF, this also sets us up for the optimal IS then MF order during Lunar.

We're sacrificing one stronger tick of MF/Sunfire for a tick of IS through our initial casts (kind of), but as long as we gain that tick back through a stronger NG DoT, I think it's worth it.

IS tick = .84 * MF
Solar IS tick = 1.37 * (.84 * MF)
Sunfire tick = 1.37 * MF

Is DPS gained > DPS lost?
Sunfire tick - Solar IS tick > MF tick - IS tick
1.37 * MF - 1.37 * (.84 * MF) > 1.00 * MF - .84 * MF
.2192 * MF > .16 * MF

So after one Solar we gain back .06~ MF ticks worth of damage which is more or less meaningless, but if we add the gain from getting setup for the next Lunar that makes more desirable.

Getting an extra tick Lunar MF instead of IS
Lunar MF tick - IS tick = DPS gain
1.37 * MF - .84 * MF = .53 * MF

So the total gain from doing it this way is .53 * MF + .06 * MF = .59 * MF or about 25 DPS.



The alternative is to cast Sunfire first and buff IS with NG during solar. I think this is a DPS loss in all cases. On top of the lost .06 * MF damage, you'll have at least one tick left on IS when you need to refresh MF to maintain 100% DoT uptime. From there I see two scenarios that both suck:


1. Refresh MF before IS and get a NG buff for IS instead of MF

IS tick - Lunar MF tick = DPS gain
.84 * MF - 1.37 * MF = -.53 * MF


2. Let MF fall off until you recast IS to get NG then cast MF. You get the extra tick of Lunar MF, but at a loss of at least 1 second of DoT uptime for MF, as well as the extra IS tick that you'd get anyways for just refreshing right away.

Lunar MF tick - IS tick - 1 sec MF uptime = DPS gain
1.37 * MF - .84 * MF - (1/18 * 13 [number of ticks] * MF) = -.19 * MF



I don't think we would ever want to have DoT downtime to set this up, but given the option (probably only the beginning of the fight), I think IS -> MF/Sunfire is the way to go.



NOTE: When I was getting numbers for IS and Sunfire ticks, I tested while having my gear on (no strange buffs, no E&M, no procs). I took off all my gear just to see what the difference was, and Sunfire ticked for around 30% less than IS did, which means Sunfire is scaling with spell power considerably better than IS. I didn't get the exact scaling numbers though.

While Sunfire is affected by haste atm, it is still started at a base 3 second tick versus a base 2 second tick of Insect Swarm and Moonfire. Until that is fixed, Sunfire before Insect Swarm in Solar is the way to go. I go from 13 to 16 ticks of IS by casting Sunfire first. I go from 9 ticks to 10 ticks of Sunfire by casting IS first. Sunfire does tick harder per tick than Insect Swarm but not enough to make up for the extra 2 ticks.

Again, if they fix Sunfire to be base 2 sec ticks, it will always make sense to cast IS first in a NG proc situation. However, until then, Sunfire before IS in Solar is the way to go. Also, I think we've put this to bed multiple times but it keeps coming up, it is absolutely a dps loss to try and avoid casting Sunfire by refreshing a non-Eclipsed Moonfire right before Solar procs.

Yeah, you're right about IS gaining 2 ticks instead of one. That was a mistake on my part. However, I gain 2 ticks of Sunfire from NG as well (8 to 10). I guess it depends on where your haste falls between the tick thresholds for IS and Sunfire (I'm at 1096). Not sure what the thresholds look like for Sunfire.

For me, casting IS first still seems like a gain considering I get 2 ticks of Sunfire and a setup for Lunar MF with 100% DoT uptime (ends up being a .8 * MF tick gain).

Yeah, there is some rounding that goes on though I am surprised there is a situation where you gain exactly two ticks on both spells. Seems like a highly unlikely situation at the very least. At 1312 haste, I go from 9 to 10 ticks on Sunfire. Seems strange you go from 8 to 10 at your haste. Can you double check on that?

Doesn't it seem possible that if you are refreshing your dots right at the start of solar you would want to go sf, is, sf?

That way you would get both buffed and the powered up initial damage from sf, which unless you are gcd capped should be fully stacked by the time you cast it again. (1 stack when you cast it, 1 each second afterwards = 2 seconds for 3 stacks= 2nd cast if more than 1 second gcd) ... maybe even if you are capped, I have no way to check.

My powered up initial sf damage hits for about the same as wrath anyway, but is a faster cast with no travel time and ridiculously low mana cost (not that mana is an issue).

It just involves remembering to move when you refresh dots.
Then on the next go round you just don't not/clip the last dot of is which you would probably want to be starting with next go round anyway.

@Selendis
So the check is that if we are in SOLAR and we have a predictable Energy that is less then 0 and IS is less then 5 seconds we should clip the IS regardless if its buffed or not?

Some more questions i have:
Should we really refresh a buffed dot? Is it not more beneficial to let a buffed IS/MF to expiry before casting the dot again?

What is the timelimit that we should check if we want to choose what DoT that should be buffed with NG?
Example if we are in SOLAR and MF have 5 seconds left but IS have 3. Should i clip MF(2 seconds early) in order to buff the IS? Note that by doing so we need also be aware that in LUNAR we need to counter this as well since we now have he opposite scenario. Meaning that should we always alter the dots that is buffed or should we simple choose one?

First let me say that we really can't verify some of these until we have a good simulator that gives us cycle lengths, Starfall CD changes, handles movement, etc. Numbers on time remaining are rough estimates.

Given that caveat, and the recognition that perfect execution of all of this is probably less than a 200 DPS improvement, I'd suggest some changes:

1) When moving, Replacing a missing DoT should be a higher priority than a shooting stars proc. Also, whenever Starfall is worth casting, it is worth casting while moving.

2) I don't understand the comment and code: --Cast MF right before solar to maximize NG and DoT uptime if IS duration permits (curious what people think about this)

The only time you want to cast a DoT just before Eclipse, is if NG happens to already be off cooldown (should be rare).

3) For --Clip IS after last solar cast (after Wrath is cast but before it hits) note that if IS has under six seconds remaining and NG is not up, then you are almost certainly replacing a NG'd IS with a "normal" IS, and six seconds of clipping might be on the high side. Similar comments for MF/Lunar.

4) The tool could use a checkbox for casting Thorns on CD as a priority ahead of nukes.

5) If you aren't in Eclipse, don't refresh a DoT until after its last tick (you'd probably convert a tick+Eclipse to a normal tick, and it is worth a little down time to avoid that).

6) If NG or Heroism is going to expire inside of Eclipse in under one second, refresh any MF/IS that has under four seconds remaining.

7) If you were going to recommend a "last Solar nuke cast" but less than four seconds remain on IS and you have the Lunar Shower buff, extend Solar with an MF cast. Likewise, if you were going to recommend a "last Lunar nuke cast" and the Starfall CD will expire in less than four seconds, extend Lunar with MF.

Regarding the thing about the limit of rebirths in a fight:

"We are also considering (though it's less solid) making Soulstones work more like Rebirth -- you could essentially stone someone after they died and let them rez themselves -- in addition to the way they work currently. That way there would be two classes with battle rez, and we could go with the model of one per fight (maybe more in 25) rather than a long duration."

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> Mandatory Raid Buffs and Debuffs

There is something weird going on with that at the moment. I sometimes get error messages about not being able to resurrect more players in combat. But other druids are able to resurrect just fine in the same fight. I have not really tested this yet, but I got a feeling that if my rebirth cooldown finishes during the fight, I am not able to resurrect players.

No shaman or soulstoned player had complained about not being able to use their self-resurrect, so it's probably just some bug with the Rebirth-spell.