[WOTLK 4.0] Balance Discussion - Page 16

Latas · 11/03/10, 6:49 AM

I have found a peculiarity with Lunar Shower that I am not sure if is intended or should actually have a bug report sent in. So assuming one is running around with at least one stack of Lunar Shower it will do the pulse check each second it ticks down. However once at 2 or more stacks it seems to only do the pulse check after the first second and if you miss that one it won't matter how much you move or even if you cast another moon/sunfire, you will lose your stacks.

Another thing I have been pondering if it would actually be a valid gripe to the devs to mention that when shooting stars procs while you are actually casting a starsurge, that starsurge will use up the proc when the cast is finished. It is pretty much identical to the problems we had with our 4t8 bonus and if I recall right the devs listened to us. I am just wondering if it would get out of hand if it were fixed like our 4t8 bonus was or if it would be in line with what is expected from boomkin dps wise and such.

benscott · 11/03/10, 10:24 AM

ok.. i always used IS.. MF to open but i was reading up on the IS v MF v SF stuff and read that to open u should use MF then IS

i tried this and it seems to leave me with a gap of about 1sec (or just over) until i have to refresh IS after clipping MF, so i can squeeze in a wrath before having to reapply IS

is this the best way to go?

Also i heard it was good because u gain extra ticks from taking Sunfire before IS in solar.. and by starting with MF>IS u have to refresh/clip Sunfire in solar but i dont understand how u gain extra ticks?

Grendelle · 11/04/10, 10:03 AM

+63 SP v Black Magic...

I've been using Black Magic since a little after 4.0.1 and have had reasonable success on WOL.
I know they are close, but has anyone run the numbers and come up with a definitive front runner?

Also, a small tip: If you can load up your eclipse on trash to where you can start the boss fight with full eclipse... You will see a significant DPS boost.

Mews · 11/04/10, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Latas

I have found a peculiarity with Lunar Shower that I am not sure if is intended or should actually have a bug report sent in. So assuming one is running around with at least one stack of Lunar Shower it will do the pulse check each second it ticks down. However once at 2 or more stacks it seems to only do the pulse check after the first second and if you miss that one it won't matter how much you move or even if you cast another moon/sunfire, you will lose your stacks.

I was seeing the same thing in WG Moonkin bombing people (It's easier and funner than ever btw); my LS stacks were easy to maintain at 3 when constantly moving, but any time you stop moving for more than 1second the stacks just tick down. Casting MF/SuF will never refresh/add a stack btw, only moving does.

It seems to have a binary switch when at 1< stacks for below 2 seconds which can only be reactivated with a new buff stack. This could just to make sure that we don't do a shoot and scoot tactic, more so in PvP than anywhere else, but it is annoying. On the other hand, it does make forethought when to move and not a playing skill.

DANYDEDR · 11/05/10, 5:50 PM

Is Black Magic on 1H still actual?

Thx for reply

Erdluf · 11/06/10, 2:06 PM

I did some roots testing on Deathspeakers Watch, level 80 mobs, 10080 health.

Roots would consistently break once the mob received 25% damage from non-roots sources while rooted. That could be DoTs cast before roots, melee after roots, or thorns.

If I didn't do anything else to a rooted target, roots would consistently run full duration.

Grendelle · 11/08/10, 8:45 AM

Originally Posted by DANYDEDR

Is Black Magic on 1H still actual?

Thx for reply

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Black magic procs 4 times in a 2 minute span almost directly in line with its ICD of 30 seconds. And yes, black magic works in 1H weapons.

Deathntaxes · 11/09/10, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by benscott

ok.. i always used IS.. MF to open but i was reading up on the IS v MF v SF stuff and read that to open u should use MF then IS

i tried this and it seems to leave me with a gap of about 1sec (or just over) until i have to refresh IS after clipping MF, so i can squeeze in a wrath before having to reapply IS

is this the best way to go?

Dots will still complete their final tick if you clip them. So it would be better if you simply reaplied IS at that point instead of throwing in a wrath. If the wrath was going to contribute to your eclipse energy state, then it would be a neutral point to casting it then. As whether you cast IS then wrath or wrath then IS. You are neither losing an IS tick, or gaining or losing any eclipse point accumulation time (If you catch my meaning).
However; if you cast wrath in between on a starfire cycle, you are not gaining any ticks on your IS, as the IS will still complete its final tick regardless. But you will be losing 1x(wrath cast time) on your starfire casts. Losing that much time on gaining eclipse power and thus a dps loss.

So you have a loss on one hand and no gain or loss on the other. All for something that is a really tight choice, situationally. More often than not, casting the wrath will actually be a dps loss as any time that is spent without IS on the target is a dps loss, even if it is 0.5 seconds every 20 seconds or so.

Summary: Just cast IS if there is one tick left the last tick will still happen even if you clip it.

iamrelevart · 11/09/10, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Latas

I have found a peculiarity with Lunar Shower that I am not sure if is intended or should actually have a bug report sent in. So assuming one is running around with at least one stack of Lunar Shower it will do the pulse check each second it ticks down. However once at 2 or more stacks it seems to only do the pulse check after the first second and if you miss that one it won't matter how much you move or even if you cast another moon/sunfire, you will lose your stacks.

I was messing around with this and was able to refresh my stack at 1 second (time to stop and loot) while grinding out low level mobs for Loremaster. To me, it seems like there's a dead zone around 2 seconds. Either you're moving when it wants to tick down to 2 seconds or you start moving at 1 second (like the first cast). But if you start moving at the second second, it ticks down and expires. I honestly don't understand how this behavior could be coded this way, but I can say for certain that it is not a single pulse at two seconds.

kemmo · 11/10/10, 3:26 AM

Originally Posted by Grendelle

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Black magic procs 4 times in a 2 minute span almost directly in line with its ICD of 30 seconds. And yes, black magic works in 1H weapons.

The Black magic indeed has a continuous effect of proc after the ICD as mentionned above. But is there any haste cap for black magic enchant where it is devaluated and instead it is best to use +63 sp. ?
You cannot have a proper simulation in dummies with different items of gear or a raid environment is situational since the battle mechanics cannot ever be same, so always there are differences...
At my point of view (and gear), there are moments in raid fights where my haste scales up to 1.8k+ rating not including raid buffs (DFO hc + halion trinket + hyperspeed + black magic). With potion of speed consumed twice in a boss fight (in start of pulling) and the second pot with heroism my rating scales up far beyond 2k rating...
My passive rating is at 1263 with 2 x haste trinkets (DFO hc + Halion) or 1168 if i use DFO hc+ PotNL hc (reforge 40% crit --> haste).

My second concern is about glyph of starsuge and the prime glyphs. I use (as mentioned here also in the guide) the Moonfire/IS/Wrath prime glyphs combo. But it seems that there are lots of moonkins that use SS instead of Wrath. They pick that one, because we spam wrath half the time and SS gives back a powerful cd faster and can make it coincide with Lunar every time, more or less. But I cannot take under thought that we dont use also Starfall at every exact moment of cd (mobs or bosses segments).
For example in LK 25man hc fight, is it best to swap wrath to SS (for valks and vile spirits fights)?

Arythorn · 11/10/10, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by kemmo

But it seems that there are lots of moonkins that use SS instead of Wrath. They pick that one, because we spam wrath half the time and SS gives back a powerful cd faster and can make it coincide with Lunar every time, more or less. But I cannot take under thought that we dont use also Starfall at every exact moment of cd (mobs or bosses segments).
For example in LK 25man hc fight, is it best to swap wrath to SS (for valks and vile spirits fights)?

Beauty of new glyph system is how easy it is (just some powder which is cheap) to switch glyphs. Insect Swarm and Moonfire glyphs are pretty much always in place but I do swap between Starsurge and Wrath. HLK is definitely one where using Starsurge helps line up Starfall with every Valk wave instead of every other Valk wave which is very valuable. It may take a time or two through Cata progression fights before we realize which glyph will be best for a particular encounter but I suspect Starsurge will continue to be swapped in with some regularity.

Grendelle · 11/10/10, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by kemmo

The Black magic indeed has a continuous effect of proc after the ICD as mentionned above. But is there any haste cap for black magic enchant where it is devaluated and instead it is best to use +63 sp. ?
You cannot have a proper simulation in dummies with different items of gear or a raid environment is situational since the battle mechanics cannot ever be same, so always there are differences...
At my point of view (and gear), there are moments in raid fights where my haste scales up to 1.8k+ rating not including raid buffs (DFO hc + halion trinket + hyperspeed + black magic). With potion of speed consumed twice in a boss fight (in start of pulling) and the second pot with heroism my rating scales up far beyond 2k rating...
My passive rating is at 1263 with 2 x haste trinkets (DFO hc + Halion) or 1168 if i use DFO hc+ PotNL hc (reforge 40% crit --> haste).

Basically it all depends on haste level... When Black magic procs for me I'm at about a 1.1 sec wrath... With lust I'm at 0.9 sec which I know is a small waste. I value the unlusted quicker wrath casts more (esp with glyph of wrath).

However for most moonkin Black magic is more beneficial. If you are not in ~full best in slot gear (or have upwards to 1500 haste without CDs) then you are not seriously approaching the haste soft-cap.

Another thing to note:
This discussion conveniently leaves out DOT ticks and Starfire. Black magic also benefits those, and as such should be factored into your decision.

kemmo · 11/10/10, 11:45 AM

I am at 1.1 sec cast wrath almost constantly due to accelerators ("free to engage with dot IS macro") and black magic. With heroism and potion, starfire goes 1.1 sec. Lots of times I see wrath going also 0.9-1.0 sec cast time until I swap to lunar eclipse rotation.
ok its not always and every time that all haste cds align together. I am not in favor of swapping black magic (at least not yet) since dots benefit a lot from haste level. As far as I see, both of you (Calculatéd + Grendelle) best in slot gear druids scale passively at ~50-100 haste rating more than myself but neither of u have the combo of engineering + black magic enchant that would give you 250 more haste rating than you already scale at the moment.
Anyway thank you for the replies

Darya · 11/16/10, 1:36 PM

I am looking to find out if there is any bennifits to changing from a NE to a Worgen for racial bonuses? I thought I read something someplace, but have been unable to relocate the thread.

dreslav · 11/16/10, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Darya

I am looking to find out if there is any bennifits to changing from a NE to a Worgen for racial bonuses? I thought I read something someplace, but have been unable to relocate the thread.

Viciousness is a +1% crit chance for worgen, and it comes at the cost of shadowmeld. Worgen also have a free sprint ability as a racial, and have the added benefit of shadow AND nature resist boosts instead of just nature resist for night elf.

This, of course, does not consider that night elves are butt ugly and worgen will have brand new graphics associated with them.