[WOTLK 4.0] Balance Discussion - Page 3

• Hamlet · 10/11/10, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Royalite

http://treebarkjacket.com/patch-4-0-guide/

I don't know if this is true or not for 4.0 but if someone can confirm it, it probably would be a good idea to include it.

I've never heard that. See if you can find a source. It would be pretty odd though.

aceofsween · 10/12/10, 2:01 AM

As far as addon's go, you could add ForteXorcist or DoTimers to the list. They aren't quite as minimalist as SquawkandAwe, but they are definite alternatives to consider.

ryd3l · 10/12/10, 4:24 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

I've never heard that. See if you can find a source. It would be pretty odd though.

In beta Rebirth works like a raid/group-wide potion cooldown wise (or at least it does in heroics). When one druid uses it, the others have it greyed out and unusable until end of combat, no 30min cd for them though

aceofsween · 10/12/10, 4:34 AM

Does this also include Soulstone effects?

M� nze · 10/12/10, 6:21 AM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

pre 4.0 yes. Post 4.0, the 26 INT provides greater than the 30 sp on the head and the 21 INT provides greater than the 24 sp on the shoulders (plus some crit in both cases). The crit is not as high as the 35 total crit from the other head/shoulder enchants but, with Reforging, 36 points of Spirit is greater than 35 points of Crit. No, I can't directly Reforge the stats gained from these enchants but if I make up 36 spirit/hit on these enchants, it could enable me to Reforge 40% of the Spirit on say Boots of Unnatural Growth - Item - World of Warcraft to say 30 points of Haste (which is a superior stat to crit for the record).

All in all the enchants listed are better pound for pound than the old enchants -- especially if you are trying to make up hit and still even if you are fine on hit due to Reforging mechanics.

Well, it depends on your gear.We are speaking about 1sp gain.
If you still over hitcap after reforging all the spirit/hit on your gear, Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants will be better choice.

As of lvl 85 enchants you don´t have any choices, since there are only : 65 Int / 30 Crit Head- and 50 Int / 25 Haste Soulderenchants (130 Int / 25 Haste if you have Inscription).

p.s. Another interesting fact about incription: found that item in the wowhead database. It apears to be Inscription ony lvl359 idol, yeha its marked as relic, but i asume thats just some kind of generalisation, so shamans could use it too. Might be worth taking this into proffesions section.

ryd3l · 10/12/10, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by M� nze

p.s. Another interesting fact about incription: found that item in the wowhead database. It apears to be Inscription ony lvl359 idol, yeha its marked as relic, but i asume thats just some kind of generalisation, so shamans could use it too. Might be worth taking this into proffesions section.

Shamans, DKs, Druids and Pallies all use relics in the ranged slot now instead of one type of gear each.

And on the Soulstone shared cd: I think so, but I'm not sure. I'll test it after heroic id reset later today

rookie1 · 10/12/10, 8:21 AM

I can confirm as of PTR build 13164 (and its 12 oct EU) you can indeed enchant over Engi Tinker's. and since it goes live 2morrow for US.

Arythorn · 10/12/10, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by M� nze

Well, it depends on your gear.We are speaking about 1sp gain.
If you still over hitcap after reforging all the spirit/hit on your gear, Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants will be better choice.

It doesn't depend on gear. Let me take another swing at explaining why. The 47 INT (combining both enchants) is superior to the 54 sp by more than just the 1 sp. That 47 INT also provides roughly .33% crit (or ~15 crit rating), not to mention a higher mana pool and more regen (though those matter less at level 80 than they will at 85). So, 55 sp and 15 crit versus 54 sp. That side of the enchants clearly favors the enchant listed in the guide. If we take the 35 crit rating and subtract the equivalent of 15 crit rating we got from INT, that leaves us 20 crit versus 36 spirit.

Again, if I'm already over the hit cap or exactly at the hit cap, those 36 points of spirit are still better than 20 crit. Having those 36 points of spirit on the enchants will allow me to reforge 36 points of spirit or hit somewhere else in my gear to 36 points of haste. I really don't see any situation where Kirin Tor/Hodir are better anymore.

In short, 55 sp, 15 crit, 36 spirit is greater than 54 sp and 35 crit. The spell power comparison is favorable and, with reforging mechanics, 51 points of secondary stat value is greater than 35.

Kluian · 10/12/10, 9:49 AM

The raid CD on rebirth seems kind of odd. You kind of gain an advantage in 10 man with regards to battle rezes (resing 1 guy in 10 man has a much bigger impact than rezing 1 guy in 25).

Did anyone test a 25 man raid on beta/PTR? Perhaps there are more CD's available per encounter in the larger raid. Like 2-3 per attempt.

Arythorn · 10/12/10, 10:19 AM

While I agree that Bres could be more than a bit of a raid crutch at 10 min cooldown and mostly agree with it going back to 30 minutes, a shared single lockout amongst a 25 man raid does seem like the pendulum swung a bit too far the other way.

On another front, if anyone cares to see the rotation in action, the vid I put together for PTR build 13033 pretty much still applies for 4.0 rotation:

YouTube - Boomkin Cataclysm Rotation PTR 13033

No, my live UI does not look like that -- I went a bit obnoxious on the size and placement of Power Auras in an effort to show clearly the relation between cooldowns, trinket procs, eclipse procs, dot refreshes, etc. Though I will say, I still like the placement of the IceHUD Eclipse bar better than anything else I've seen to date. I also find the combo of ForteXorcist and Power Auras to be more configurable than Squawk and Awe or the like (I just scale the auras way down and move them for my live UI).

Ereshmilor · 10/12/10, 11:38 AM

Well, it depends on your gear.We are speaking about 1sp gain.
If you still over hitcap after reforging all the spirit/hit on your gear, Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants will be better choice.

Originally Posted by Arythorn

It doesn't depend on gear. Let me take another swing at explaining why. The 47 INT (combining both enchants) is superior to the 54 sp by more than just the 1 sp. That 47 INT also provides roughly .33% crit (or ~15 crit rating), not to mention a higher mana pool and more regen (though those matter less at level 80 than they will at 85). So, 55 sp and 15 crit versus 54 sp. That side of the enchants clearly favors the enchant listed in the guide. If we take the 35 crit rating and subtract the equivalent of 15 crit rating we got from INT, that leaves us 20 crit versus 36 spirit.

Again, if I'm already over the hit cap or exactly at the hit cap, those 36 points of spirit are still better than 20 crit. Having those 36 points of spirit on the enchants will allow me to reforge 36 points of spirit or hit somewhere else in my gear to 36 points of haste. I really don't see any situation where Kirin Tor/Hodir are better anymore.

In short, 55 sp, 15 crit, 36 spirit is greater than 54 sp and 35 crit. The spell power comparison is favorable and, with reforging mechanics, 51 points of secondary stat value is greater than 35.

Like Münze said, when you have reforged everything and you are still over the hitcap Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants is better, because Spirit has no use.

Kluian · 10/12/10, 12:34 PM

I wonder if anyone plans on making a CLCret style addon for moonkins. Basically informing you on what your current and next cast should be, configured to match how the eclipse bar will be positioned after those casts finish.

Celdhyrean · 10/12/10, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ereshmilor

Like Münze said, when you have reforged everything and you are still over the hitcap Kirin Tor/SoHodir enchants is better, because Spirit has no use.

Sure, but will this realistically happen with level 80 raid gear ? The cap is going to be over 210/180 hit rating higher than currently (depending on alliance or horde cap). Since you can discount 40% from your spirit from gear due to reforging, this means that you'd need to have ~300 spirit from gear (discounting heroic presence) before it becomes useless.

Since moonkins have avoided spirit items where possible up till now, we should only have a few pieces with spirit to cover that gap.
At the 264 gear level non-spirit alternatives where plentiful (even when looking at leather pieces only) so those moonkins should be far from that issue.
I seem to remember that BiS 277 gearing relied more on spirit items, the SimCraft template for example brings a little less than 270 spirit from gear. Adding the enchants plus whatever overcap hit you had could make you exceed the usefull amount of spirit.

Conclusion would be that the spirit enchant choice could be a problem for respeccing trees or mostly 277 horde moonkins. Others should be fine.

• Hamlet · 10/12/10, 12:53 PM

To help plan out reforging a little, since it can get a bit confusing to pick which items to wear.

You generally want the sum of Spirit and hit rating, on your gear (unreforged) to be less than around 694 (because reforging every piece will take that down to 416, +30 from two blue gems and a chest enchant to hit cap).

As long as you're below that amount, you want to swap in a higher-ilvl item even if it has Spirit/hit (because you'll be ultimately better off by using the better item and reforging hit away from two items to stay at cap). Basically, our stats are very fungible due to Reforging, and Spirit is a good stat, so you're likely to wear a lot of items that have it.

----

You can use this algorithm to take care of your gear/gems/reforging/enchanting today:
1) In each slot, put on your best item, ignoring the hit cap. This will generally be your highest-ilvl leather spellpower item (I'd keep 4T10 if you have it though).
2) Have two blue gems (a Nightmare Tear and a Purified) and a +10 chest enchant, and no other Spirit gems/enchants. If you have other things socketed, just ignore them by subtracting them off for now.
3A) If under the hit cap of 446, great. Move up to the cap by a) reforging crit to Spirit, b) replacing crit head/shoulder enchants with Spirit ones, or c) putting Purified gems into blue sockets with bonuses.
3B) If you were over the hit cap, proceed with the following steps until you reach it:
4) Swap out any hit or Spirit piece for an equal-ilvl crit piece if you have one.
5) If your hit rating on the character sheet is greater than 724, swap out hit or Spirit items for non-hit items of lower ilvl (whichever are the closest ones you have), until below that amount.
6) Reforge Spirit/hit to haste on any hit/crit or Spirit/crit items.
7) Reforge Spirit/hit to crit on any hit/haste or Spirit/haste items. You will now be at or slightly under the hit cap.
8) Since reforging come in chunks, you might wind up a little bit under the cap. Swap in some blue gems or a Spirit head/shoulder enchant to put you squarely at it.

Cube · 10/12/10, 12:57 PM

I seem to have missed it, but what is the exact percentage bonus for Astral Leather bonus? I'm assuming that it's 5%, but cannot find it in the original post.