[WOTLK 4.0] Balance Discussion - Page 9

Rahucun · 10/15/10, 8:59 PM

You mention starfall should be cast whenever its up, shouldnt we try to proc it during a lunar eclipse for the 37% dmg inc (standard dmg for a lunar eclipse)?

Arythorn · 10/15/10, 9:59 PM

Depends on how long you have to delay the cast to line it up. If you are delaying it more than 20 seconds, you are pretty much washing out that 37% buff.

aceofsween · 10/15/10, 10:30 PM

What is the general consensus on which spell to queue up after your final Wrath/Starfire/Starsurge that triggers your next Eclipse?

I've noticed a delay in the Eclipse proc that is long enough for a queued Moonfire to go off before a Solar Eclipse is fired, making it impossible to queue a Sunfire-to-be (so to speak) for when your Solar Eclipse fires. At this point, is it better to simply queue up Wrath and then cast Sunfire/Insect Swarm next?

There's a similar problem with Lunar procs, but I can't decide if it's better or worse. The only downside I can see would be if you can achieve enough haste that you are finishing your Starfire cast before your Wrath lands or you are so close that you would be better delaying your Starfire due to the added value of haste from Nature's Grace.

Does anyone know (definitively) which scenario is better?

Rahucun · 10/15/10, 11:31 PM

Yes, for my part, i would go for the extra wrath/starfire until the delay of the eclipse is set to not cast a dot before the NG's reset.

Because I don't see what you could do between the delay for eclipse, maybe refreshing the dot that wont get any boost from the eclipse

Ex: going for solar eclipse, sitting at 95% and considerating that SS is on cd, i would cast starfire,moonfire(eclipse is proccing while moonfire gcd) then IS with the 37% bonus of nature dmg + having your NG refreshed.

aceofsween · 10/16/10, 12:12 AM

You realize the situation you posit means that you're not getting a sunfire off, correct?

Arythorn · 10/16/10, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

What is the general consensus on which spell to queue up after your final Wrath/Starfire/Starsurge that triggers your next Eclipse?

I've noticed a delay in the Eclipse proc that is long enough for a queued Moonfire to go off before a Solar Eclipse is fired, making it impossible to queue a Sunfire-to-be (so to speak) for when your Solar Eclipse fires. At this point, is it better to simply queue up Wrath and then cast Sunfire/Insect Swarm next?

There's a similar problem with Lunar procs, but I can't decide if it's better or worse. The only downside I can see would be if you can achieve enough haste that you are finishing your Starfire cast before your Wrath lands or you are so close that you would be better delaying your Starfire due to the added value of haste from Nature's Grace.

Does anyone know (definitively) which scenario is better?

Usually the next cast I have queued after an Eclipse has proc'd will be (in order of preference):

a) Starsurge if I carried the cooldown or a Shooting Stars proc into the Eclipse
b) the nuke that benefits from that Eclipse (i.e. Wrath in Solar or Starfire in Lunar)
c) an extra cast of the opposite nuke (due to an unexpected crit carrying me over the proc)

Often times, the existing MF/SF/IS dots have some duration left and I wouldn't be refreshing them immediately upon Eclipse anyway. There's no good reason to clip them just because you proc'd Eclipse so the times where it might make sense to refresh a dot as the first cast post Eclipse will be minimized by that fact. If everything is going optimally, the next best cast after a proc'd Eclipse would be either a) or b) above. If your dots expired just as you proc'd Eclipse or just prior and do need to be refreshed quickly post Eclipse proc, they can be refreshed directly after that Starsurge/Wrath/Starfire cast.

I just finished putting together a rotation vid "post-damage-balancing" (euphemism of the day for nerf). It shows this general principle in action (at least when I'm executing it correctly). It also my UI cleaned-up and set for 4.0.1. Will edit this post with it once it finishes uploading and processing to HD on Youtube.

Hidden · 10/16/10, 1:24 AM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

You realize the situation you posit means that you're not getting a sunfire off, correct?

No matter if he does, Sunfire still is no damage increase unless I've missed something. The rather low increase to initial damage should still easily be offset by Sunfire's 3 seconds tick frequency compared to Moonfire's 2 seconds tick frequency.

• Hamlet · 10/16/10, 1:53 AM

Yeah, right now it's an odd situation because a Sunfire does roughly the same damage as a Moonfire. In general though, the principle is that you want to cast one Eclipsed nuke before you refresh a DoT, in order to get the benefit of Eclipse. I least, that's what I put in the guide, because I'm not sure how else you would go about it.

aceofsween · 10/16/10, 2:06 AM

Wait... how is that even possible? Sunfire is buffed by Solar Eclipse, therefore should do 37% more damage (or whatever your mastery bonus is at...) than a Moonfire (and I have damage tests that confirm this number). They may not be doing equal damage due to bugs, but I can confirm that, at least, Sunfire hits harder than Moonfire and therefore I think we can assume it will also do more damage, once it is operating correctly.

Edit: Turns out I am wrong and Sunfire just does less damage than Moonfire flat out, which is compounded by Haste scaling. I can't understand why this is the case, it completely defeats the purpose of transforming the spell into a new ability if the ability is no stronger than the one you're changing it from.

Mews · 10/16/10, 2:21 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Yeah, right now it's an odd situation because a Sunfire does roughly the same damage as a Moonfire. In general though, the principle is that you want to cast one Eclipsed nuke before you refresh a DoT, in order to get the benefit of Eclipse. I least, that's what I put in the guide, because I'm not sure how else you would go about it.

This is exactly what I've been doing; The delay between hitting 100 energy and the proc, with latency exacerbating the fact, means I have HAVE to cast a Starfire/Starsurge at either end just so that I can make sure to get the Eclipse benefit for my DoTs.
I guess it's payback for when we could use a /cancelaura script for Solar eclipse to proc Lunar back in 3.2 or whenever it was.

On Nibelung; On the dummies I didn't see any significant difference between it and Spike/spindle. I did find it pretty amusing that I had to switch to the Resto idol to make up for the lost hit, landing me smack bang on 17%.

I'd pick one up for leveling, as it would depreciate slower than a stat ratings weapon, though I think weapons get replaced pretty early in Cata.

Arythorn · 10/16/10, 2:52 AM

Moonfire and Sunfire are tick-for-tick hitting harder than Insect Swarm now.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If Sunfire would get full number of ticks, it would be better than a non-Eclipsed Moonfire -- however at 2/3 of the ticks, it's slightly worse (less than 10% off) -- I can't see justifying clipping a MF right before Solar just to avoid casting Sunfire -- clipping would be more of a loss than the Sunfire which is very close in damage to the non-Eclipsed MF. You would also lose the value of Nature's Grace to IS by refreshing MF outside of the Eclipse.

Here's the average numbers (with trinkets removed and with no haste effects applied):

SF (Solar) 50/50 23101 (direct + 8 ticks)
IS (Solar) 50/50 26880

MF (Non-Eclipse) 25379 (direct + 12 ticks)
IS (Non-Eclipse) 19620

MF (Lunar) 34754 (direct + 12 ticks)
IS (Lunar) 19620

Again, once Sunfire is fixed to tick at a base of every 2 seconds rather than 3, it will be better than a non-Eclipsed MF -- they just need to finish the fix. Even now, it still makes sense to use Sunfire vs clipping or casting a non-Eclipsed MF. Also, overall they hit IS a bit too hard with the 50% swipe. Personally feel it needs to be bumped up slightly.

Lastly, the video of the 4.0.1 rotation is processed now. I'm not executing perfectly on every transition but you can kind of get the idea:

YouTube - Boomkin Cataclysm UI and Rotation 4.0.1 Take 2

• Hamlet · 10/16/10, 3:45 AM

Originally Posted by aceofsween

Wait... how is that even possible? Sunfire is buffed by Solar Eclipse, therefore should do 37% more damage (or whatever your mastery bonus is at...) than a Moonfire (and I have damage tests that confirm this number). They may not be doing equal damage due to bugs, but I can confirm that, at least, Sunfire hits harder than Moonfire and therefore I think we can assume it will also do more damage, once it is operating correctly.

Edit: Turns out I am wrong and Sunfire just does less damage than Moonfire flat out, which is compounded by Haste scaling. I can't understand why this is the case, it completely defeats the purpose of transforming the spell into a new ability if the ability is no stronger than the one you're changing it from.

I did so much testing over the past day it's almost hard to remember, but I think I did confirm that Moonfire and Sunfire do identical damage. I might have missed something on the initial hit since it has a range, but the DoT was the same for me. There are lots of things that make testing tricky (anytime you see an anomalous number--was it affected by Earth and Moon? Omen of Doom? Trinket? Lightweave? etc.).

Sunfire is a touch weaker than Moonfire--it loses 33% from the tick rate, and gains 37% from Eclipse. (Before someone asks--0.67*1.37 < 1).

Arythorn · 10/16/10, 4:01 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

I did so much testing over the past day it's almost hard to remember, but I think I did confirm that Moonfire and Sunfire do identical damage. I might have missed something on the initial hit since it has a range, but the DoT was the same for me. There are lots of things that make testing tricky (anytime you see an anomalous number--was it affected by Earth and Moon? Omen of Doom? Trinket? Lightweave? etc.).

Sunfire is a touch weaker than Moonfire--it loses 33% from the tick rate, and gains 37% from Eclipse. (Before someone asks--0.67*1.37 < 1).

The numbers I posted above were done very carefully with all trinkets and rep ring removed to avoid any of that variation. I also made sure I cast them alone with no E&M, no Omen of Doom, and also with no Nature's Grace haste affecting any of them. The dot portion is indeed the same for Moonfire and Sunfire -- the average direct hit is basically the same as well. The only difference as noted is 8 ticks versus 12 ticks (well at the haste I was with trinks removed, etc.). Basically 2/3 of the ticks.

aceofsween · 10/16/10, 4:07 AM

The test that I did today were actually showing Moonfire to be worse than Sunfire with no gear on. The only possible explanation for this that I could come up with would be the Moonkin Form haste, but the margin was great than 5%.

I conducted tests for Moonfire in Eclipse, Moonfire with Nature's Grace in Eclipse, Moonfire outside Eclipse with Nature's Grace and Moonfire outside Eclipse without Nature's Grace. Sunfire was weaker than Moonfire across the board. Here are the results I got:

Spell	DD	DoT Total	Avg DoT Tick	Avg DoT Crit
Moonfire w/ Lunar & NG:	2005	2988.5	250	494
Moonfire w/ Lunar:	1924	2347	247	494
Moonfire w/ NG:	1376	2012.25	185	375
Moonfire no buffs:	1424	1975	184	365
Sunfire:	2171	1773.25	254	494

My sample size was on the smaller side (I found myself lacking patience tonight) which is why there is some fluctuation in the numbers, but this is enough to illustrate the point. Sunfire's problem is that it is supposed to do equal damage to Moonfire, but it's ticks do the same amount of damage as Moonfire ticks (in Lunar Eclipse), but because they tick every 2 seconds instead of every 3, you only get 6 ticks instead of 9. There's nothing inherently wrong with Sunfire ticking every 3 seconds, except that the damage should be greater (Sunfire should do 50% more damage, or Moonfire should do 66% less damage, however you like to express it). It doesn't though. Instead, it ticks for the same amount. This leads me to believe it is, in fact, a bug, one that not so long ago was affecting Moonfire. Sunfire and Moonfire should be mirror images of each other, but with this small exception they aren't.

Edit: Correctly adjusted my numbers.

• Hamlet · 10/16/10, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

The numbers I posted above were done very carefully with all trinkets and rep ring removed to avoid any of that variation. I also made sure I cast them alone with no E&M, no Omen of Doom, and also with no Nature's Grace haste affecting any of them. The dot portion is indeed the same for Moonfire and Sunfire -- the average direct hit is basically the same as well. The only difference as noted is 8 ticks versus 12 ticks (well at the haste I was with trinks removed, etc.). Basically 2/3 of the ticks.

Yeah, I just confirmed this too. Damage values are the same.