[WOTLK 4.0] Bear Discussion

♦ Carebare · 10/01/10, 4:28 PM

Bears and Cats don't want to share. Here there be bears.

[WOTLK 4.0] Cats <- the lead post in the cat thread with bear info

Jamu · 10/16/10, 2:29 AM

Looking at the spreadsheet and numbers, I really get a bit confused why Pulverize is the opener of choice:

Given 2484 weapon damage (which is what you changed it to while I was viewing the spreadsheet from the 3577 or whatever when I first opened it :P)

Pulverize = 3426 threat (which may be high - you have things set up assuming there are 3 stacks of lacerate on the target; cell reads "+ 3*451", which will only happen if lacerate stacks = 3. So as an opening move, Pulverize may only give you ~2100 threat given how the spell is written.)

Mangle = 5548 threat

Pulverize gives no crit add at the first hit, because the crit add is based off lacerate ticks. If the target has 0 lacerate ticks, then you get no 9% crit/18 second pulverize buff (spell reads "and increases your melee critical strike chance by 3% for each Lacerate application consumed for 10 sec" - so if no lacerate applications to consume, no pulverize bonus?). Just seems wierd to open up with something low threat and non-buffing, while Mangle does more threat and gives the classic 1 min bleed damage buff - which increases the lacerate tick damage/threat.

Also on the spreadsheet... once Pulverize is up on the target:

Pulverize = 3669 threat
Mangle = 5941 threat

What seems higher threat to me would be the following:

Opening sequence:

FFF/Mangle/lacerate/lacerate/pulverize

From there, use the following priority system (kinda like the old feral cat dps rules):

Mangle whenever possible
Thrash whenever possible
Lacerate as primary filler when Mangle/Thrash CDs are down
Pulverize as a "finishing move" when there are 3 stacks of lacerate on the target, and pulverize is about to wear off

(Q: Is 100% Pulverize uptime required? What if you use Mangle/Thrash before Pulverize, even if this means the buff dropping for a few seconds before you reapply? Ignoring tossing swipe into the rotation due to concerns of overcomplicating the rotation, not sufficient tps difference from Lacerate DD, and possible issue of not having 3 lacerate applications up depending on procs of Mangle and use of Thrash in the rotation)

AoE rotation:

Thorns, then pull.

Swipe / Maul(Glyphed) / Thrash / Maul(Glyphed) [repeat until mobs die]

(Have druid healer/boomkin reapply Thorns if necessary?)

Thoughts? Suggestions? GTFO mah theorycrafting you noob requests?

*edit* Bleh... realized I was looking at the spreadsheet incorrectly. Spreadsheet shows in-cycle tps, not initial opening rotation. Never try to do analytical maths after midnight, folks... your brain goes to gremlins. Anywho, comments on the proposed opening sequence/general rotations listed above? >.>

Vilendor · 10/16/10, 10:48 AM

I don't use this "priority system" at all.

Thrash and lacerate hits as filler? Why should i use those when there is Pulverize with much more damage and threat?

This is how i tank single targets:

FFF - opener
Macro with: /castsequence Pulverize, Lacerate, Lacerate, Lacerate - spamm it
Mangle - Whenever its up or lacerate ticks reset it - sucks with this new que system when you spam the above macro
Maul - If there is enough rage
Demo roar - keep it up all time

This is the highest agro and dps rotation what i have found so far.
100% pulverize buff uptime (you can even spare 2 talent points with Endless Carnage), ~90% lacerate uptime, cheap skills for 15 rage that means you can hit maul almost on CD.

(ps: Yeah, its kinda lame and boring smashing 3 buttons without brain)

Toughts?

Jamu · 10/16/10, 11:13 AM

One quick thing:

Your current rotation is based on current in-game mechanics where we don't even have Thrash available. I'd also point out that you actually *do* use the above priority system, at least in part:

"Mangle - Whenever its up or lacerate ticks reset"

The question for you to test would be if it makes sense to always do Pulverize ASAP, or if it makes sense to have your main threat gen moves be Mangle and Lacerate (and Pulverize only when necessary to keep the buff up).

This also enters the old tps vs dps debate. Pulverize does more dps than Lacerate direct damage, but Pulverize clears out Lacerate. Are you looking to maximize tps or dps? Keeping Lacerate up may provide higher overall tps (but at a cost to dps). My personal priority is to keep tps at max, as the dps has the job of killing things (not the tank). However, if the tps numbers are close... I would drop to the higher dps rotation and Pulverize often. This may be an excellent question to look into, both for current bears and for bears at 85.

The spreadsheet is (if I understand correctly) based on level 85, where it Thrash is available. According to the spreadsheet:

Threat per hit (at 2484 weapon damage):

Non-Pulverized:

Mangle: 5548
Lacerate DD: 3311
Lacerate tick: 132 per stack (396 per tick at 3 stacks)
Thrash: 4428
Pulverize (w/3 stacks of lacerate up): 3425

W/Pulverize up

Mangle: 5941
Lacerate DD: 3382
Lacerate tick: 141 per stack (423 per tick at 3 stacks)
Thrash: 4741
Pulverize (w/3 stacks of lacerate up): 3668

If rage generation isn't an issue (which it doesn't seem to be), you look for the highest threat move per hit as you don't have to be "efficient" about rage use. This sets the priority of Mangle first, Thrash second, lacerate to fill, and Pulverize when necessary to keep it up. I look to max tps, and assume the tps of maintaining Lacerate outweighs the use of Pulverize.

FYI, Maul ends up coming in at 3398 threat with Pulverize up (barely better than Lacerate's direct damage). If that's the way things are going, Maul will drop out of our tanking rotation entirely except as an option to fill the gaps once you get 3 stacks of Lacerate (and swipe, at 3605 threat, would be a better option). However, that will get a bit tricky:

In the time after you pulverize, you will have 11 GCD's to burn (16.5 secs after the 1.5 sec GCD for hitting Pulverize wears off). In 16.5 seconds, you will Mangle 3-5 times (including Berserk procs) and Thrash 3 times. That's 6-8 moves done, leaving 3-5 moves left over for "fillers". Getting 3 lacerates in will be a priority (and I'm assuming every single hit lands - if a Lacerate misses, you will have to be sure to get three stacks before hitting your next Pulverize).

dhegin · 10/17/10, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Jamu

FYI, Maul ends up coming in at 3398 threat with Pulverize up (barely better than Lacerate's direct damage). If that's the way things are going, Maul will drop out of our tanking rotation entirely except as an option to fill the gaps once you get 3 stacks of Lacerate (and swipe, at 3605 threat, would be a better option). However, that will get a bit tricky:

Why would you drop it out of your rotation? off gcd threat isnt worth it?

FuxieDK · 10/17/10, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Melthu

Our masteries are damage reduction, Vengeance, and Savage Defense. The Savage Defense mastery is a reworking of what we have today.

Have there been any numbers worked on this, in comparison to Dodge?

In short form:
- Dodge: RNG chooses wether you avoid all incomming damage from a physical attack
- SD: RNG chooses wether SD procs (crit), and then you avoid XXX physical damage

So, both Dodge and Savage Defense is prone to the will of RNG and only work against physical attacks. Does it matter to swap one RNG element for another?

Looking on a typical tank item with Dodge on it (Ashen Band of Unmatched Courage - Item - World of Warcraft): Would it be better to leave the Dodge on this ring (or any other item with Dodge on) or reforge (some of) it into Mastery?

politikinc · 10/17/10, 12:39 PM

As Savage Defense scales with Vengeance, with Vengeance accumulating/decaying rather unpredictably from encounter to encounter, I found it difficult to produce a precise relative value of Mastery versus Dodge. However, I did a few preliminary tests using a log from Rotface25H post-4.0.1 without having reforged dodge rating into mastery rating and arrived at the following:

Health: 95,664
Dodge: 48.82%
Mastery: 14.32 (+57% to Savage Defense)

Melee hits: 20 (average damage = 10,972.1)
Dodges: 33
Absorptions: 7
Misses: 4

Savage Defense procs: 54
Savage Defense consumed: 21 (average absorption = 10,697.4)
Vengeance (average AP): 3819 AP

After having reforged 29 dodge rating from Devium's Eternally Cold Ring, 33 dodge rating from Ashenband of Endless Courage and 29 dodge rating from Bile-Encrusted into 91 mastery rating, I gained +1.98 Mastery and lost -1.11% Dodge. With an average Vengeance of 3819 during Rotface25H, an additional 1.98 Mastery is equivalent to +545 damage absorption for each SD proc, translating to +5% mitigation for a loss of 1.11% avoidance.

Knowing that the value of Vengeance is rather inconsistent, I also examined Mastery and Dodge from the perspective of Deathbringer Saurfang.

Melee hits: 24 (average damage = 15,032.2)
Dodges: 43
Absorptions: 0
Misses: 1

Savage Defense procs: 52
Savage Defense consumed: 26 (average absorption = 7,948.6)
Vengeance (average AP): 1112.93 AP

+1.98 Mastery results in +405 to Savage Defense in this encounter, which is equivalent to +2.7% mitigation at a loss of 1.11% avoidance.

The nerf to Savage Defense proccing from 100% on a crit. to 50% doesn't seem to have made an appreciable effect (any effect for that matter) as it seems that every melee hit from those two encounters were mitigated to some degree by a Savage Defense proc. Though this is rather rough modeling (especially given Vengeance's variability), I would hazard a guess and say that Dodge ought to be reforged into Mastery.

Tiffara · 10/17/10, 4:30 PM

As this is the WOTLK 4.0 thread, not the Beta thread, I think we should skip the commentary on Thrash, which doesn't exist on live (and won't until the expansion). // Edited by Carebare so that more idiots don't jump on this bandwagon.

As for reforging dodge rating, in general you won't need to, because in general you won't have anything with dodge rating on it to reforge!

That is, armor/strength/dodge items no longer do much for bears, and we are better off replacing them with agility items. This is mainly because the bonus armor on items was greatly decreased (in at least one case completely removed), at least on all non-armor items (our armor hasn't had bonus armor for quite a while, so I don't know about those), and agility items now have the stats that are more useful to us. This includes cloaks - while the total armor stayed the same, the armor rating on the non-tanking cloaks all went up (and the bonus armor went down).

The only place you're likely to find dodge now is on trinkets, as a choice versus stamina trinkets. The benefit of dodge trinkets is you can reforge them, so the question is mostly back to the age old stamina versus avoidance. With the removal of the chill of the throne debuff, avoidance is looking better than it has.

One of the benefits of feral druids is that we use fairly similar gear for tanking and dps, and this is one nice thing about mastery rating - it's a good stat for both roles. As a kitty primary, bear secondary, I've been replacing the armor/dodge items with either leftover kitty items, or in some cases current kitty items (where the leftovers simply didn't have a strong stamina or armor advantage).

♦ Carebare · 10/17/10, 11:04 PM

I moved some posts out of Astrylian's TC thread, they were before the formalized split and would have ended up in the Cat 4.0 thread if I hadn't split things up. I realize they mention Thrash, the short end of it is too effing bad, the forums will UNDERSTANDABLY be a bit screwed up as we get through the last leg before Cata goes live. Seriously folks suck it up and stop trying to do my job for me.

N9INE9 · 10/17/10, 11:23 PM

Just a couple quick things. I have been playing for 6 years now and bear tanking as my main for the last 3. Since putting a cd on swipe, I feel we are lacking now as aoe tanks. I still do fine keeping healing threat off healers but I can't make enough threat to let dps go full out(ie ICC trash). It's pretty sad. However I am holding judgement until thrash but I still think we will be lacking in our aoe threat. Last thing for now, I was wondering if anyone worked up a good number for our dodge %. The point where any dodge we get after that can be reforged into mastery.

kalbear · 10/18/10, 12:29 AM

I could be entirely wrong on this, but maul is now an instant attack like Lacerate, Mangle, etc etc etc.

You are entirely wrong on that. Maul is off the GCD and is an instant attack. It has a 3 second GCD. Maul is independent of your rotation, and the only decision to use it should be whether or not you have the rage for it.

Xenoborg · 10/18/10, 1:26 AM

I'm surprised at the number of people complaining about the changes to swipe. People just need to get used to how to use the new swipe, its not the same as before and shouldn't be used like it.

It may have a 6s cooldown, but the amount of damage and threat it does has been massively increased. You can do close to the same amount of AOE threat using the new swipe on cooldown as you could spamming the old swipe, and now you get to use those other GCDs for something else. This could be tanking a boss along with his adds or this could just be adding extra threat on a particular add or taunting one that got pulled away.

The new swipe is for sustained AOE threat, and is not for snap threat like the old swipe. I find it isn't great for picking up mobs, but if pickup is done by other means can be an amazing source of threat.

Take gunship adds for instance, ~ 1 mob every second for 8 seconds.
There is simply no way to pick these up with swipe. You need to mangle the first, FF the second, maul the third, ect. Once a most are out you start using swipe to generate your sustained threat.

On some fight the new swipe is just amazing:
Taje Lich king phase 1 for instance, 3 adds at once every 20? seconds
It is incredibly easy to tank LK and all the ghouls now and never lose threat on either.

Royalite · 10/18/10, 1:49 AM

As for current AoE threat as a bear... Yeah. It sucks.

It does feel like growing pains until Thrash is available. The hole in our aoe rotation is noticeable. However, it isn't impossible to hold aggro on a bunch of mobs and it isn't that much out of sync with other tanks. Even when I am on my DK, I can't drop D&D with blood boil spam and expect to hold aggro. It just doesn't work like that anymore (unless I outgear the dps). I have to TAB and rune strike/heart strike. All tanks got hit with AOE tanking nerfs.

Gone on the days on swipe spam. Before on my bear I could charge and swipe spam without worrying about a thing. We just can't do that anymore, but that doesn't mean we can't AOE tanking it just requires more work than before.

You have to tab.

I stepped into a heroic dungeon with some worry cause I read all the blogs about bears sucking with threat especially for aoe. I was expecting to be running around trying to grab 5 mobs all attacking a different player but it wasn't like that at all.

But we have some tools. So I typically charge and apply FF to one mob in the pack, open with a swipe. I tab target the mobs and apply lacerates. The lacerates proc berserk (multiple target) so I use mangle while continuing to tab. If I start to lose one, I use our stun.

I will admit that when I control the pull, aoe tanking isn't bad. However when I had dps run around and pull a second pack when things are on CD. I did have the situation of running around trying to pick up 5 mobs each attacking a different player. The same thing happened to me on my DK and I was still running around trying to pick up mobs each attacking a different player.

Thrash isn't going to be a lifesaver as it isn't a swipe spam replacement. Even at 81, I am going to still be tabbing through trash in order to hold aggro.

Sorry I am just not convinced or buying into all the doom and gloom about our aoe tanking. I am going to just work on being more creative with what tools I do have in order to get the job done over the "I am not going to even attempt it" attitude =S

kalbear · 10/18/10, 1:57 AM

Agreed. You'll simply have to let dps take a couple hits while waiting for swipes, make sure to taunt, and otherwise be on the ball. But on normal pulls or chain pulling swipe hits like a truck. As long as you charge->swipe, it's very hard for dps to pull off you unless they're really going balls out on a single target.

It'll be even easier come thrash, but it's mostly a matter of getting used to the tools at hand. You don't get quick threat, you get sustained threat. Warriors with tclap have been dealing with this for an entire expansion and do okay.

As an added bonus, put thorns on before the pull to make sure that those that you swipe stay on you. If you do that you should be good. Another option is to pull with hurricanes, then swipe coming in.

Leafkiller · 10/18/10, 1:59 AM

Here is my experience with Swipe on the trash packs just before the plague wing. I run in, let all the mobs get on me, and hit Swipe. The pally tank runs in and pulls every single mob off of me before swipe comes off of cooldown. Between swipes I am putting lacerate on mobs tab targeting. None of them ever aggro on me. Keep in mind the dps were pulling off of the pally left and right. My ability to hold a large pack is non-existent.

My assumption is that we are tuned for level 81 and above and, unless Blizz does some sort of adjustment, bears will not be viable AOE tanks until we get get Thrash. Feels a lot like BC.

Single target threat is fine though.