[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm Release - Page 5

tangedyn · 12/17/10, 5:13 AM

Originally Posted by MatsT

It does apply to hit, but since 1% hit only helps half as much as 1% expertise (below 6.5% expertise) you would need to fulfill c > 1-m-d instead of c > (1-d-m)/2. Since 1% crit requires more rating than 1% expertise, its actually feasible to be at the point where one expertise rating gives more proccs from special attacks than one crit rating. When you bring white hits back into the equation you will never (in this tier or the next at least) be able to reach a crit value where expertise gives more proccs in total.

Don't be too sure of that! According to Fasc spreadsheet (which I have personally reviewed to be mostly correct, there are some slight errors won't affect results significantly), Expertise Rating pulls ahead of Crit Rating by about 10%. It's not too surprising because a bear should have ~33% crit, buffed to ~42% with pulverize. With 0 Hit and Expertise, m+d+p adds up to 29.5%, so a bear would generally have about 25%. While expertise doesn't affect affect crits from white attacks, there are more yellow attacks than white attacks, so I won't be surprise that Expertise Rating overall pulls ahead of Critical Strike Rating.

I haven't personally reviewed Rawr.Bear numbers, so I'm less trusting of those numbers. The first set of values shows Expertise being ahead of Critical Strike by some insignificant amount while the second set shows Critical Strike being ahead by ~33% which doesn't look right to me.

aldones · 12/17/10, 11:36 PM

I'm wondering if [Kaleki Cloak] is not a better tanking option for pre-T11 than [Wrap of the Great Turtle] .

Rawr (beta) seems to think so ...

Comments ?

david0925 · 12/18/10, 2:41 AM

So I am not sure what is going on, but going from [Toskk's Maximized Wristguards] to [Poison Fang Bracers] I LOST 500 armor for some reason. From 30.8k to 30.3k. The enchant on both is identical. I also gained only 0.16% dodge from 45 agility (although I'm not sure if this part is normal or not). The stamina contribution is as expected.

Just wondering if someone who still kept their old bracers around can do some checking for me to see if I am the only one having this issue.

tedheet · 12/18/10, 4:44 AM

I was wondering if any of the darkmoon cards ([Darkmoon Card: Hurricane] or [Darkmoon Card: Earthquake]) would be useful for a druid tank at all? I didn't see them on the rawr list, but it seems that the stats on both cards could, possibly, be borderline?

Also, as a ring, the [Gilnean Ring of Ruination] seems to be close to those JC crafted rings. Do the gem slots make that big of a difference?

skeldi · 12/18/10, 10:14 PM

The hurricane card not so much. Earthquake is phenomenal.

Pudgeball · 12/19/10, 5:48 AM

So you're implying 321 dodge rating is better than 321 agility? That 3 minute clickable isn't that thrilling to put Earthquake over the top. I'd use Heroic Tia's Grace over both of those. I personally don't see what 10k extra health will do for you on a 3m cooldown that's phenomenal. Also, hurricanes proc doesn't affect tank survival or mitigation obviously, but it's a dual use trinket. If there's a period on a fight you can switch to cat and help DPS, it's a great trinket still. Earthquake does absolutely nothing. I'm a big fan of dual use items / gear, especially if someone plans on dropping 50-90k+ on a darkmoon card.

Windchilla · 12/19/10, 5:32 PM

As a tank I'd rather have 321 dodge rating (1.8% dodge) with a 10k health use than a flat 321 Agi (1.3% dodge). Earthquake's on use isn't spectacular, but thusfar on use abilities have been much weaker than in previous expansions.

That being said Tia's Grace is a fantastic trinket all around, especially for a heroic drop.

Helistar · 12/20/10, 5:30 AM

Ok, I've done the test on savage defense. The only caveat is that I used some cheap Vashj'ir mobs (the crabs which do the "flurry" attacks) instead of elites or a boss, but I would really be surprised if the mechanics changed. It works really strange:

Combat log:

I gain savage defense here:

12/19 15:02:35.781 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar", 0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF

Flurry attack starts:
12/19 15:02:36.375 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,83
12/19 15:02:36.375 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,108
12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,84
12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,81
12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,87
12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,96

......attacks go on for some time....

12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,97
12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,107
12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,113
12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,104
12/19 15:02:40.812 SWING_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,ABSORB,397
12/19 15:02:41.078 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,82
12/19 15:02:41.078 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,105

...and finally here Savage Defense is removed.

12/19 15:02:41.078 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar", 0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF

Weirdness: it's just after the first SWING_ event. So it looks like it absorbed a ton of small attacks but then a single swing dispelled it.

Later on in the logs:

12/19 15:03:16.296 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar", 0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF
12/19 15:03:16.515 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,79175,"Slap & Chop",0x1,BUFF
12/19 15:03:16.687 SWING_MISSED,0xF53099FA0033A504,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,ABSORB,367
12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_DAMAGE,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,95,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_DAMAGE,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,104,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_PERIODIC_HEAL,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar" ,0x511,34299,"Leader of the Pack",0x1,5026,0,0,nil
12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar", 0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF

Here the swing from the crab arrived very soon (they were not casting the flurry attack thing): Savage Defense goes away after the first swing. It doesn't even protect me from the two Slap & Chop which arrive before the SPELL_AURA_REMOVED. As you certainly didn't miss, it's inconsistent with what I reported just above, where SD kept protecting me after the SWING_MISSED.

I'll try again some more testing on cheap mobs, but it's hard to have a ton of them hitting me without getting killed or without me destroying them too fast....

Qutossar · 12/20/10, 6:49 AM

A question about Halfus Wyrmbreaker. With the slate drake up he does a healing debuff on the tank. It is called "malevolent strikes" and stacks up to 15 times. Each stack reduces healing received by 6%. The numbers seem to have changed a lot since beginning of beta, but that's the numbers we encountered yesterday.

From the description of the debuff it should apply each time Halfus hits the tank. However, in my combat log it seems that the debuff also was applied when the attack was dodged/'blocked' via savage defense. I also never dodged the debuff individually. I've not been missed by Halfus at all.

Can anybody confirm this ?

On a side note: We had the The Nether Scion, The Slate Dragon and The Storm Rider active yesterday and have no idea at all on how to beat this combination in a 10-man even though we were able to remove the debuff with a paladins hand of protection, which seems a bit too good.

Fuzzyowl · 12/20/10, 9:11 AM

In the fight you are discussing Qutossar you should really be killing the Nether Scion (the debuff it puts on the boss reduces his chance to hit, his attack speed, and his damage done by 25%) and the Storm Rider (which slows the shadow nova cast time to interuptable levels), this it what my raid did for this fight 3-4 days ago and we managed to kill him within an hour dispite him still doing a lot more damage through his Add firing more fireballs and the stacking mortal strike debuff.

And back on topic has anyone else felt like other tanks cannot match our threat at the start of a fight, because during all boss fights the warrior tanks in our raid are usually struggling against mine and dps's threat during the start of a pull (even when the dps are holding back and i'm just meleeing with a mangle thrown in every 7-10 seconds depending on threat), but whenever I pull first the dps usually say they can go full out with the threat that I generate.

Does this mean that our threat generation is a lot higher than warriors and other tanks (anyone able to confirm as i haven't played with other tanks?) and that we are soon to be addjusted to be in line with other tanks, or that the other tanks are given a boost? (I've been thinking about this since the lastest blue post from Blizzard regarding threat needing to matter)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1693171

Grend · 12/20/10, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Fuzzyowl

In the fight you are discussing Qutossar you should really be killing the Nether Scion (the debuff it puts on the boss reduces his chance to hit, his attack speed, and his damage done by 25%) and the Storm Rider (which slows the shadow nova cast time to interuptable levels), this it what my raid did for this fight 3-4 days ago and we managed to kill him within an hour dispite him still doing a lot more damage through his Add firing more fireballs and the stacking mortal strike debuff.

And back on topic has anyone else felt like other tanks cannot match our threat at the start of a fight, because during all boss fights the warrior tanks in our raid are usually struggling against mine and dps's threat during the start of a pull (even when the dps are holding back and i'm just meleeing with a mangle thrown in every 7-10 seconds depending on threat), but whenever I pull first the dps usually say they can go full out with the threat that I generate.

Does this mean that our threat generation is a lot higher than warriors and other tanks (anyone able to confirm as i haven't played with other tanks?) and that we are soon to be addjusted to be in line with other tanks, or that the other tanks are given a boost? (I've been thinking about this since the lastest blue post from Blizzard regarding threat needing to matter)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1693171

Quite the opposite I've found that the DK tank I'm running with in our 10 man raids has a very large amount of snap (initial) threat regardless of whether he has a significant stack of vengeance. It's been fairly even overall, but at times I've had him pull the same mob and easily surpass my initial threat. We are both similarly geared.

I however haven't had any experience tanking along side a Warrior or Paladin in a raid.

Keltai · 12/21/10, 12:50 AM

I haven't seen anyone mention PvP gear, but at a glance it once again seems like the superior choice when it comes to pre-raid gear.

Here's a comparison of the Justice Point shoulders vs the Honor Point shoulders.

The only loss seems to be in threat and a little bit of Savage Defense. Or am I missing something?

Beanna · 12/21/10, 8:47 AM

According to the pre-raid numbers in the first post, the PvP gear seems to be the best choice for a bear despite the fact that we lose a lot of threat stats because of the resilience.

I've made this gear list on Wowhead, maybe it should help :
Items - World of Warcraft

Lobonija · 12/21/10, 5:34 PM

To expand (and apparently challenge) the warriors vs druid tanks theory; we've noticed a substantial difference between damage taken & threat regarding myself and our warrior tank. Even from as far back as heroics all the way to Cho'gall, it has been evident that druids are out-preforming warriors on both threat and damage taken for single target tanking. Savage defense lends itself to absorbing the large hits from bosses, while a warrior's block is going to be better for tanking smaller hits from multiple targets, as in adds. Of course this doesn't take into account player skill or healer attentiveness, but said warrior was the best geared warrior in the world at the time of this testing (according to some silly site.) Both he and I started in full heroic gear, he received an upgrade per boss up until 11/12, while all I picked up was a weapon and much much later a belt and 2P tier. He out-geared me heavily (and still does) throughout our progression.

Clearly this is just one example regarding just two players but I didn't see any posts with these results, so I'm curious if anyone else has made similar observances or if this is just an isolated occurrence. I suppose it is worth nothing that this is 25m normal difficulty in Bastion, Descent & Throne of the Four Winds, I can't speak for 10m encounters.

Aelorean · 12/21/10, 6:47 PM

In your "pre-heroic" set (original post), you have items that require chaos orbs to craft. Those orbs are no drop and only found in heroic dungeons.