I was doing some napkin math on the feral set bonuses and, depending on your crit level, my numbers were showing that using 2 CP generators was superior to using three because, while you have less of a probability of getting a berserk extension, you use more finishers.

For example:
At 55% crit using 3 CP generators and a finisher you get:
Assuming GCD of one second with no latency and perfect timing you could fit in 8 finishers before berserk expired, with time to finish a 9th if you didn't use the full 3 CP generators on the last one which I did not factor into this.
This further assumes limitless energy which is unlikely to occur out of Bloodlust/Heroism.

0 crits -> 09.11% * 1 = 09.11% = 3 pts
1 crits -> 11.13% * 3 = 33.39% = 4 pts
2 crits -> 13.61% * 3 = 40.83% = 5 pts
3 crits -> 16.64% * 1 = 16.64% = 5 pts

Number of extension attempts at a specific probability of success:
((8 * 40.83%) + (8 * 16.64%) = 4.6) for the 5 pt attempts and so on.

So
4.60 extensions * 1.0 = 4.60
2.67 extensions * 0.8 = 2.136
0.73 extensions * 0.6 = 0.437
Total: 7.173 extensions @ 55% crit. = 14.346 more seconds of berserk on average.

But at 55% crit using 2 CP generators and a finisher you get:
Assuming GCD of one second with no latency and perfect timing you could fit in 17 finishers before berserk expired.
This further assumes limitless energy which is unlikely to occur out of Bloodlust/Heroism.

0 crits -> 20.25% * 1 = 20.25% = 2 pts
1 crits -> 24.75% * 2 = 49.50% = 3 pts
2 crits -> 30.25% * 1 = 30.25% = 4 pts

5.14 extensions * 0.8 = 4.114
8.42 extensions * 0.6 = 5.049
3.44 extensions * 0.4 = 1.377
Total: 10.540 extensions @ 55% crit. = 21.080 more seconds of berserk


This equates to an approximate gain of 47% more extended time over using 3 CP generators. Of course, this napkin math doesn't factor in the myriad of other variables such as procs, other cooldowns, energy regen and haste, etc so I'm sure it's only a rough, starting, view of how the set bonus should be used.

That said, the 4 set isn't what I'm really interested in. The 2 set to me, depending on if it behaves like ignite, could turn out to be quite weak in many situations. It almost seems in direct contradiction to the gameplay the 4-set encourages if it doesn't behave like ignite.

It's always dangerous to assume, but I'd be pretty shocked if the dot does not copy Ignite's behavior. That includes the Ignite munching issue, but due to the differences in mechanics between ferals and fire mages I'd expect it to be less of a problem.

Well since we usually spam Shred (or at least use it several times in a row, interrupted occasionally by re-applying Rake/Rip/SR/Mangle) or even Mangle when attacking from the front, or as a berserking bear, I do see "munching" problems ahead.

For rogues and DKs, it is filtered a bit since it only procs from critical strikes (though, munching might exist here, too, if offhand auto-attacks proc this as well, but that's not our topic)
Hunters and warriors deal instant damage, at least for warriors even on abilities that have a 4,5/6sec CD anyway.

Out of curiosity, what 2pt finishers would you be using? Rip and Ferocious Bite both disqualify (on account of being damn horrid with 2 combo points). A two-point Savage Roar already lasts long enough to stay up the entire Berserk. Sure, you can use it 'for free' (as essentially you'll generate the energy cost in the GCD it took you to put up SR), but even so, I don't see it being worthwhile.

And while I like the idea of 20seconds more of Berserk, I still have my doubts about its actual usefulness. Berserk is only so-so when you don't actually have energy to spend during that time and even in the current length of Berserk it is easy enough to reach the bottom of your energy bar. At zero energy, those two seconds extended Berserk basically just mean one more Shred (or, the energy reduction of half a Shred).

The idea looks appealing as it promotes going into Berserk with a bit of a plan - get to 5 cp and then Berserk for a guaranteed 4 seconds (seeing how you can get a second finisher in during Berserk), but other than that I can't see it having as big an impact as people are hoping for in optimal conditions.

That was kind of my point though. As I understand it Ignite munching occurs when two different spells crit at the same time, such as a spell with travel time and a spell that hits instantly landing together. That certainly won't happen with mangle and shred. The other time it occurs is when a crit happens at the same time as an Ignite tick, but since it takes almost 4 seconds to regen enough energy for a second shred anyway it's not common to spam them, basically just during berserk or a string of OOC procs. It'll take some log parsing to determine for sure how big of a deal it is, but mechanically I think we'll be less likely to run into problems than mages are.

I'm sorry, I wanted to agree with you, but in retrospect, I just said the same things with different words

Though, I understood munching as a new crit overwriting an Ignite from a previous, larger crit, thus preventing part of the previous Ignite's damage. But you're right, we don't use Shred every GCD, or even every second GCD after the initial buildup (especially once we have Hungerer, staying low on energy will be beneficial)
I think a large factor will be the tick rate, 4 ticks every 1 sec or 2 ticks every 2 sec. The first of course would be way better.

I believe you need to lose 80% of your max energy to proc it, not be lower than 80% of your max. That is to say, you must be at 19% or lower energy, not 79% or lower.

That might, usually, be easy to do, however in a situation where we'd likely be using a Berserk and getting a lot of extensions, it would likely be one where we have a lot of pooled energy and a haste buff, such as heroism, getting us a lot of bonus energy regen. In such a scenario we would be spamming abilities essentially every GCD, likely as part of a burn phase, and not dropping below 20% energy easily.

Perhaps one way to get the benefit would be to let your energy dip below 20%, Tiger's Fury, then Berserk to get the TF buff, as well as the trinket proc, for the first part of your berserk. While I believe it's usually slightly less than optimal to pop TF and 'zerk together normally, in that situation it may well be worthwhile.

Well, since 4.1 Berserk doesn't trigger the GCD anymore, so a combination of TF+Berserk might be viable now. Haven't really tested that yet, did not raid in a while.

You're right - completely misread that as 'whenever you lose 20%'. The one-minute internal cooldown does line up neatly with an unglyphed Tiger's Fury though.

Casting TF and Berserk together is optimum now as there is not upper limit on energy for Berserk since you can cast any other ability at the same time and not risk too much energy loss.

While you do not want to Berserk every time you hit TF with Berserk off of cooldown (just in case you are waiting for an opportune time such as aoe phases on Meloriak or the exposed head on Magmaw), you do want to try to hit TF at the same time you Berserk unless you recently used TF and need to use Berserk for some specific situation.

I wanted to ask, in case I missed this within glyph of ferocious bite discussion within the thread.
Since DPS increase, heroic fights take less and less time and usually 2nd or 3rd berserk is ready during <25% phase were we use Ferocious Bite as finisher.
Isn't glyph of Ferocious Bite a DPS increase in such situation? Since burning through whole energy without glyph during berserk couses less shreds which ends up with less Ferocious Bites (and lower dps?), or actually ferocious bite damage per energy doesn't effect DPS during berserk even if we are energy starved after?

Edit: Nvm this question, found out that FB is 2x about more efficient that shred in energy conversion. However it looks like FB energy cost is not halfed during berserk?

Edit2: I noticed when testing weird FB energy cost behavior. Sometimes it will take me down to ~80 energy (after pooling to max). Other times it will take me down to 70-80energy and 0.5sec later to 35-55 energy again (after pooling to max also).
Should release some video later today or tomorrow but I think it can be reproduced by anyone to test.

FB works in a complicated way, with energy consumption being performed half client-side and half-server side (note that what I write below is mostly speculation which comes from my attempts at reconstructing the energy profile during a fight).

What normally happens when you shred is that, in order to provide you with instant feedback, the energy bar is reduced by the shred cost immediately upon cast (SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS), after some checks are performed client-side (GCD, enough energy, position).
The SPELL_DAMAGE event occurs later in time, after your cast has gone to the server and the server has determined the actual damage.
With FB, the problem is that the server cannot trust the energy value of the client to determine the "extra energy" used to increase the damage from FB (it would open the way to cheating), so the FB energy consumption is performed in two steps:
- at cast time, you immediately spend 35 energy (or 35/2 if berserking)
- the cast is transferred to the server, which uses its energy value to determine actual damage and returns it to the client, together with the actual amount of extra energy which has been used (this amount is not divided by 2 when berserk is up)
- the client updates the energy bar with the new information received.

When you cast FB, expecially in a high-lag situation, this two-step energy consumption becomes very visible (BTW one of the problems I'm finding with reconstructing the energy, and which I'm conveniently ignoring, is that I have trouble understanding how this interacts with TF, which provides an immediate energy increase which can happen between the two steps of FB).

Even in the current content the cost of using GoFB is pretty low. In my Mew sims with a profile around ilvl 362 it comes out as only a 25 dps loss - and it is potentially advantages on some fights.

Just a quick note, we've pretty much confirmed with Mew that it is now a DPS gain to clip Rip when TF is up. Previously it was a DPS loss when we still used FB as a finisher making CPs a limited resource. Also confirmed that letting Rip drop to synch up with an upcoming TF does not improve DPS.

Does Tiger's Fury make Rip 'clippable' by default yet? Or is it still only based on AP?

In Mew or in game? I don't think the clippable behaviour has been changed in Mew

Obviously it's still PTR stuff and can change a lot before the patch goes live.
New changes in red.
Looks like they're finally trying to fix ferals and are making the T12 4 set more meaningful aswell (with the FB change).
Personally I'm also glad about the innervate change (even though it's not "new" now and not that big boost), as my guilds healers still tend to ask for feral innervates despite it only being around 5k mana currently.

I wonder if haste will move up in RSV with the changes in 4.2. Glyph of Berserk being 10 secs instead of 5, 2 piece granting additional fire damage for our non bleed attacks, 4 piece extending berserk so more energy=more berserk, increased damage on mangle, shred, and FB. I mean the changes aren't set in stone yet, but what do you guys think?

Yawning has updated the 4.2 changes into Mew SVN.
From quick testing, FB is still not good enough to be used over Shred @5CPs (it's a very very marginal DPS increase), but Glyph of Berserk is an obvious better choice now over Glyph of TF. 4T12 is a nice boost now especially with Glyph of FB (which is now usable) and Glyph of Berserk.

Not enabled

We will still run out of energy in berserk, I've been running a troll cat recently with all reforges to haste in nearly full 372, yet sometimes you run out of energy with some good chance of having at least 50 energy at the end with enough RNG on clearcasts.

Question is, how much non troll cats will suffer due to berserk increase uptime?

Are the bumps to mangle and shred actual buffs, or it's a wash after the AP nerf from SoE/HoW/STR in general?

The AP nerf is a static nerf, because just about all our source of STR is static.
The mangle and shred buff are scaling multiplier buffs.