[Feral-Cat] Cataclysm Release - Page 13

ralftux · 02/14/11, 9:09 AM

Hi spiderxjz82,

try to reload UW in rawr from wowhead, should correct the dps.

Nich · 02/14/11, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

That's a rare scenario, though.

Glyph of FB certainly seems attractive now, even when we won't use FB until <25% - the extra energy spent without the glyph would be better invested in another Shred, and it doesn't leave you energy-starved after refreshing your Rip, avoiding problems such as Rake or 4T11 falling off.

It's rare above 25% to have all of those going in your favour, sure. But during berserk, it should be doable.

I just had a quick play around on a target dummy - obvious caveats about lack of raid buffs etc - but even with UW proc'd, a full FB is better DPE than shred, so I think is still worth using during berserk. Sub 25%, I don't see why the glyph would be useful. There should be plenty of CP/energy to maintain rake, mangle, SR and FB - especially now that glyph of shred has been fixed.

Leafkiller · 02/14/11, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Nich

It's rare above 25% to have all of those going in your favour, sure. But during berserk, it should be doable.

I just had a quick play around on a target dummy - obvious caveats about lack of raid buffs etc - but even with UW proc'd, a full FB is better DPE than shred, so I think is still worth using during berserk. Sub 25%, I don't see why the glyph would be useful. There should be plenty of CP/energy to maintain rake, mangle, SR and FB - especially now that glyph of shred has been fixed.

I have run sims on only doing FBs during Berserk above 25% and it does show as a dps loss. The same is true of glyph of FB. Unless you are of the opinion that Mew is modeling things incorrectly, your best bet is to simply not use FB until 25%.

a civilian · 02/15/11, 9:20 AM

Unglyphed ferocious bite during berserk does less damage/energy than shred now, since the additional energy consumption is not reduced by berserk and the values are now so close to begin with. Glyphed ferocious bite still does more damage/energy than shred during berserk, but you need to weigh the gain from FB during berserk against the loss of damage from having it glyphed in the blood in the water phase.

(Mew says my shred does 553 DPE while my ferocious bite does 654 DPE. This would mean my ferocious bite unglyphed would do 436 DPE during berserk.)

tangedyn · 02/15/11, 10:13 AM

DPE is not the right measure to use to determine if an ability is worth using.
Especially not when comparing a Finisher (FB/Rip/SR) against a Generator (Shred/Mangle/Rake), since there are other costs involved, i.e. CP.
Even comparing Shred vs Mangle, DPE is not an accurate tool because it doesn't take into account CP generation - If Shred and Mangle had the same DPE, Mangle would still be better because you generate CPs faster. DPE^2 may be a more accurate measure, but I can't confirm that.
The best way to determine which ability gives more DPS is to sim it.

Nathanyel · 02/15/11, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

Especially not when comparing a Finisher (FB/Rip/SR) against a Generator (Shred/Mangle/Rake), since there are other costs involved, i.e. CP.

That's what I meant above, spending the CPs (and, unglyphed, additional energy) on the FB can cost you DPS in the long run, even if it is (slightly) better DPE-wise.

Exalter · 02/15/11, 12:14 PM

Let me get this right..

Shred > Ferocious bite

So that means..

"Target" is at 25% Health or less
(FB with 5 CP) OR (FB with 1CP+ if the duration on Rip is close to expiring)
If 25% health or greater
Shred until Rip or SR need refresh
Shred even if your CP = 5 (So basically keep shredding until your Rip or SR falls off, never using FB)

Please let me know if this is what your saying. It's very hard to not use your CP on FB with 5 CP and 10+ seconds left on rip/SR.. especially with blizzards glow effect on your actionbar. They should increase the damage on FB if they are going to glow the ability (As if it were a dps increase)..

a civilian · 02/15/11, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

DPE is not the right measure to use to determine if an ability is worth using.

It's exactly the right measure to use if you're deciding whether to shred at 5 CP during berserk or to ferocious bite (obviously assuming you have enough time left to regain 5 CP).

Leafkiller · 02/15/11, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Exalter

Let me get this right..

Shred > Ferocious bite

So that means..

"Target" is at 25% Health or less
(FB with 5 CP) OR (FB with 1CP+ if the duration on Rip is close to expiring)
If 25% health or greater
Shred until Rip or SR need refresh
Shred even if your CP = 5 (So basically keep shredding until your Rip or SR falls off, never using FB)

Please let me know if this is what your saying. It's very hard to not use your CP on FB with 5 CP and 10+ seconds left on rip/SR.. especially with blizzards glow effect on your actionbar. They should increase the damage on FB if they are going to glow the ability (As if it were a dps increase)..

That is correct. The tradeoffs I measured were slightly higher Rip uptime and more shreds vs. a few FBs. Keep in mind that the dps difference is pretty small either way and the number of FBs any of us typically could do with mob health > 25% is very small. Also, based on the sim results Shred scales better (the better geared profiles showed more of a dps gain with no FBs above 25%). Additionally, when there is a lot of time left to get the combo points back up, we are subject to dodges and misses - so a straight dpe measure is not 100% accurate.

Nathanyel · 02/15/11, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Exalter

They should increase the damage on FB

I doubt that. People are still whining about "9k bleeds", further buffs to our burst damage without bleed nerfs would cause even more whine.

♦ Regen · 02/16/11, 8:11 AM

Please for the love of all things furry do not use Rawr to determine what trinkets you should be using especially if its telling you that Heroic: Essence of the Cyclone is BiS - It should be painfully obvious that a +12% crit over 10 seconds proc is pure shit/essentially worthless.

Mihir · 02/16/11, 11:08 AM

H: EotC ranks highest in Mew as well :P

♦ Regen · 02/17/11, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mihir

H: EotC ranks highest in Mew as well :P

Really? Looks like -500/-800 vs. what I'm currently using not to mention Mew pegs my actual dps like 3k+ short.

rahba · 02/17/11, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Regen

Really? Looks like -500/-800 vs. what I'm currently using not to mention Mew pegs my actual dps like 3k+ short.

I don't think you're accounting for the base stats on the trinkets you're comparing it with. The flat 363 agility on top of the proc is what puts EotC ahead.

In my gear mew comes up with 23356dps with h:EotC and 23238dps with h:HoR. If you're only looking at the procs you'll see it as a 500dps loss like you said but there's a big gain from the 363agi versus 218 expertise + 145 mastery.

♦ Regen · 02/17/11, 10:26 AM

Touche I'm retarded, however point still stands that a +12% crit proc for 10 seconds is more or less worthless because I'm pretty sure it doesn't model HoR lining up with berserk (which a crit proc somewhat still applies to but is honestly shady at best) as well as rolling it with a rip infinitely past 25% (HoR+tol'vir pot).

Also obligatory expertise is undervalued.