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Old 02/17/11, 10:51 AM   #196
Gurrshael
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Drak'thul (EU)
Originally Posted by Regen View Post
as well as rolling it with a rip infinitely past 25% (HoR+tol'vir pot)
Rip's damage is updated each time it is refreshed by FB. The best you can achieve is to time FB to refresh Rip just before Tol'vir potion expires.

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Old 02/17/11, 11:09 AM   #197
Mihir
Piston Honda
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by Regen View Post
Really? Looks like -500/-800 vs. what I'm currently using not to mention Mew pegs my actual dps like 3k+ short.
Running your current gear through mew (assuming maloriak hc cloak), I get 26655 dps. Changing the trinkets to H:EotC/UW I get 26844. Reforging 500 crit to haste as well I get to 26900.

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Old 02/17/11, 9:03 PM   #198
 Regen
B-B-BLOODBATH
 
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Regen
Troll Druid
 
No WoW Account
Well thats more accurate, semi-curious what I screwed up in the sim. It still comes down to paper vs. practice (especially when the theoretical difference is ~200 dps), same applies to reforging crit into haste, when gear is still at the point where you can still drop 4 specials before getting 5cp ~50 paper dps doesn't translate well.

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Old 02/18/11, 1:10 AM   #199
a civilian
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Regen View Post
It still comes down to paper vs. practice (especially when the theoretical difference is ~200 dps), same applies to reforging crit into haste, when gear is still at the point where you can still drop 4 specials before getting 5cp ~50 paper dps doesn't translate well.
Not sure if I'm misinterpreting you, but haste actually provides much better CP generation than crit. Better conversion of rating to percentage (1/128 instead of 1/179) and feral crit rates are already high, meaning additive stacking hurts crit more. Only disadvantage of haste is that it doesn't affect bleeds once they're up.

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Old 02/18/11, 1:20 AM   #200
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
ot sure if I'm misinterpreting you, but haste actually provides much better CP generation than crit. Better conversion of rating to percentage (1/128 instead of 1/179) and feral crit rates are already high, meaning additive stacking hurts crit more. Only disadvantage of haste is that it doesn't affect bleeds once they're up.
To add to this, CP generation is not nearly the value it was in the past. With skipping FB being a better option except under 25% (and in that case it simply replaces rip) CPs are much less valuable; essentially you need a 15-CP budget every 45 seconds or so, meaning a CP every 3 seconds on average. Having an excess of CPs does almost no good whatsoever at this point and could even encourage detrimental rotations.

Hopefully they'll fix FB to be a better choice as a CP sink, but for now CP generation is much less valuable than it's been in a long time.

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Old 02/18/11, 3:38 AM   #201
Exalter
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Alexstrasza
The new Spellflash: Druid is out and I think I may have the priority down to what Yawning has suggested.

Please let me know if you agree that this is the new desirable priority for the Feral cat. I Underlined everything that was NOT added. Let me know if it would be a big dps increase if I added the underlined.

1. Use Tiger's Fury if it is available, and you have less than 25 energy
2. Use Mangle if Strength of the Panther (4T11) is about to fall off.
3. Use Ravage if Stampede buff is about to fade.
4. Use Feral Faerie Fire if it (or equivalent buff) is not already on the target
5. Use Mangle if it (or equivalent buff) is not already on the target
6. Use Berserk if it is available, and there is more than 15 seconds remaining on Tiger’s Fury cooldown
7. Use Ferocious Bite if Blood in the Water is active, and you have 5 Combo Points or Rip is about to fade
8. Use Rip if you have 5 Combo Points and Rip is not up or has less than 2 seconds remaining
9. Use Rake if Tiger’s Fury is up and existing Rake has less than 8.5 seconds remaining
10. Use Rake if Rake is not up or the existing Rake has less than 3 seconds remaining
11. Use Shred if Omen of Clarity is up
12. Use Savage Roar if it is about to fade
13. Use Shred if it will extend Rip
14. Use Ravage if Stampede is up
15. Use Mangle if Strength of the Panther (4T11) is under 3 stacks.
16. Use Shred if Tiger’s Fury is almost ready, or you have more than 80 energy, or Berserk is active
17. Conserve energy

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Old 02/18/11, 9:34 AM   #202
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Originally Posted by Exalter View Post
6. Use Berserk if it is available, and there is more than 15 seconds remaining on Tiger’s Fury cooldown
or 20 seconds with Glyph of Berserk, of course.

Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.

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Old 02/18/11, 10:41 AM   #203
Koril
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Kael'thas (EU)
I would disagree on:
16. Use Shred if Tiger’s Fury is almost ready, or you have more than 80 energy, or Berserk is active
17. Conserve energy

80 energy sounds like a very high breakpoint, even a short string of omen of clarity would make you energy cap. I do not see a reason to pool that much energy, since you would loose energy if OoC procs too much, and you would not loose dps if you anticipate timer refreshing a bit. And since you never use FB without blood in the water (at the moment), you do not have any reason to miss energy to refresh rip or SR.
Also, since refreshing SR does not consume OoC, you should permute 11 et 12.
By the way, using FB without blood if the water is still a dps increase if you are not berseking and if rip and SR are far from fading. I would add that between "11. Use Savage Roar if it is about to fade" and "12. Use Shred if Omen of Clarity is up".

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Old 02/18/11, 12:58 PM   #204
tangedyn
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by Exalter View Post
The new Spellflash: Druid is out and I think I may have the priority down to what Yawning has suggested.
Err.. this is a simplified version of the full priority list.
You should look at CatModelSimulator.script - mew-wow-druid-model - Project Hosting on Google Code for the full version if you want to implement that for better results
Leafkiller may have a better version too.

Originally Posted by Koril View Post
I would disagree on:
16. Use Shred if Tiger’s Fury is almost ready, or you have more than 80 energy, or Berserk is active
17. Conserve energy

80 energy sounds like a very high breakpoint, even a short string of omen of clarity would make you energy cap. I do not see a reason to pool that much energy, since you would loose energy if OoC procs too much, and you would not loose dps if you anticipate timer refreshing a bit. And since you never use FB without blood in the water (at the moment), you do not have any reason to miss energy to refresh rip or SR.
Also, since refreshing SR does not consume OoC, you should permute 11 et 12.
The actual breakpoint determined through lots of sim testing, as can be seen in the sim script, is actually (max_energy - energy_regen_per_second), so 80 is actually a low figure. Did you test your disagreement on the Simulator?

By the way, using FB without blood if the water is still a dps increase if you are not berseking and if rip and SR are far from fading. I would add that between "11. Use Savage Roar if it is about to fade" and "12. Use Shred if Omen of Clarity is up".
Did you test this on the SImulator?
In 4.0.3, it was tested to be a nett gain of DPS at >~10s of SR and >~14s of Rip remaining, but in 4.0.6 we've tested it using Simulator to be always the same or a loss of DPS to use FB.


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Old 02/18/11, 2:06 PM   #205
Leafkiller
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
Err.. this is a simplified version of the full priority list.
You should look at CatModelSimulator.script - mew-wow-druid-model - Project Hosting on Google Code for the full version if you want to implement that for better results
Leafkiller may have a better version too.
My sim script is posted on Fluiddruid here: The Fluid Druid - View topic - Leafkiller's 4.0.6 Feral Ovale Script. I need to update it since it contains both my script and the default script that ships with Mew (you can switch between them) and it is one version behind on the current default script. The main difference is that my script will not cast SR if Rip is close to falling off while the default script will at times - so it trades off slightly higher Rip uptime for slightly lower SR uptime. This results in small differences in different parts of the script (my script performs better when you do not prioritize Shred on Omen for example) but the end result is only about a 40-50 dps gain for my script at higher gear levels. You can also look at the Ovale script that is in the same thread (feel free to copy anything from that script that will help your implementation).

2 weeks ago someone asked me to implement my script on top of the SpellFlash addon but I checked and saw you were already working on one. I cannot emphasize enough that you do not rely on the simplified rotation you describe in your post above. There are many small timing and rotation tweaks that are captured in the sim scripts that cumulatively add up to a fair amount of dps and those are things that you should be very precise on in your addon work.

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Old 02/18/11, 4:58 PM   #206
Koril
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Kael'thas (EU)
Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
The actual breakpoint determined through lots of sim testing, as can be seen in the sim script, is actually (max_energy - energy_regen_per_second), so 80 is actually a low figure. Did you test your disagreement on the Simulator?
I did not test that, but when I say 80 is quite high, I'm thinking also about real conditions, taking in acount lags, moving fights,... While I can agree that (max_energy - energy_regen_per_second) is the right breakpoint in theory (even if I can't see why 3 OoC procs is not a problem), I think that pooling as few energy as possible is the best option in real conditions, since you could have to stop your dps for a few seconds for some reason (strat forcing you to), you could have some lag when OoC procs, or anything else... And I thing the loss for pulling 50-60 energy is smaller than the loss from energy-capping when having any kind of issue. But I can't prove that obviously, it depends on parameters that we can't formalize.

Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
Did you test this on the SImulator?
In 4.0.3, it was tested to be a nett gain of DPS at >~10s of SR and >~14s of Rip remaining, but in 4.0.6 we've tested it using Simulator to be always the same or a loss of DPS to use FB.
Yet, I didn't test. But I'am confident that I'm not wrong, since when I say "if rip and SR are far from fading", I mean: "I am 100% sure that I will have 5CP back before the next time Rip/SR needs refreshing AND 5CP back again before the next time the other one needs refreshing". That way, since the DPE from FB is a bit higher than Shred, and CP generation is irrelevant is that situation, I can't see how FB wouldn't be a gain. Of course, "100% sure" is exagerating, one could always have a incredible string of miss/dodge, but such a chain has a negligible probability to happen.

At least, simple maths suggest that "T and T' exists such that if rip has T sec left and SR has T' sec left, then you should hit FB". And what happen here is simply that T and T' has greatly increased with 4.0.6.

I could try some simulation soon to get a more precise idea of T and T', but I don't have a lot of time and I don't know how to write a script for Mew. At the moment, I uses a rough approximation and I choose to FB when I see "15 sec on rip and 25 on SR", and to be honnest that only happen a very few time in a fight, usualy right after berserk.

(I hope that my bad english didn't stop you!)

Last edited by Koril : 02/18/11 at 5:16 PM.

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Old 02/19/11, 2:49 AM   #207
Exalter
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Alexstrasza
Originally Posted by Leafkiller View Post
I cannot emphasize enough that you do not rely on the simplified rotation you describe in your post above. There are many small timing and rotation tweaks that are captured in the sim scripts that cumulatively add up to a fair amount of dps and those are things that you should be very precise on in your addon work.
I have been coding Spellflash: Druid for a very short time, I havent got to the part where I can just code in some changes. So yes I dont rely on the rotation I mentioned. But it's coming along.

I have just downloaded Ovale, first time using it. I also uploaded your script into it. Your code or rotation is flawless, the addon itself is horrible. I noticed that it will always show something in the box, this leaves out the "Conserve Energy" part of the rotation. Also it will show rake even if there is 10 seconds left on rake. This again I believe is just the addon always showing something. The plus side of the addon is the counter. Something Spellflash doesn't come with. But I do recommend getting Inline Aura. This will show CD timers, and also the debuff timers.

Im not sure if it is in your script but I have spellflash to wait to cast any Finishing move if Rip has 8 seconds left on it. It helps to keep rip from falling off. Again I like your rotation and detailed script, I just think the Ovale itself is a little glitchy. It might just be me.

2/22/2010
In the latest Updates I have gotten the rotation very close to what you recommend. Thank you everyone who replied!

Last edited by Exalter : 02/22/11 at 5:21 AM.

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Old 02/22/11, 11:18 PM   #208
bonta
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Medivh
So I've recently replaced Tiger Fury glyph with the Berserk glyph due to the fact you're better off shredding during berserk even with max CP. Now my Rip tend to drop around the 5-6 second mark of when Tiger Fury will be up. Should I wait those 5-6 seconds before reapplying Rip? Or just apply rip asap (with 5 cp of course)?

Also is there an optimal time where it's worth it to just wait those few extra seconds just so we can tiger fury rip?

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Old 02/23/11, 12:52 AM   #209
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by bonta View Post
So I've recently replaced Tiger Fury glyph with the Berserk glyph due to the fact you're better off shredding during berserk even with max CP.
I have no idea why these two Glyphs even conflict through your statement. In regards to refreshing rip. You always want to refresh it as soon as you can even if TF will come off CD shortly after. After the TF if you can build up CP fast enough you can just reapply the rip.

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Old 02/23/11, 2:22 AM   #210
tangedyn
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
After the TF if you can build up CP fast enough you can just reapply the rip.
This has already been shown through simulations to lose DPS.


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