Unless you applied the first Rip with more AP than you have when you try to reapply it. This can be somewhat avoided by not using trinkets that proc Agi (excluding Tia&FD, as their "procs" are quite permanent) but nevertheless relies on the whole raid. Ok, the most likely reason for Strength of Earth or an 10% AP aura falling off is the corresponding shaman/hunter/DK dying, which is already a major DPS loss for the whole raid. What may make this irritating to you is e.g. this scenario: You are at 4 CP, shaman dies, you are called to Rebirth him. You don't have Pred. Swiftness up, so you Shred one more time and try to Rip to proc it (and also keep Rip rolling) however the Rip fails because "a more powerful effect is already active".
And this is already without trying to re-Rip while on TF, in the last 2-3 seconds of the buff, without Hit/Exp cap.

If you lose less then 15% uptime on Rake/Rip it's better to wait and apply them with TF up.

I have noticed Rip sometimes falls off towards the end of its duration upon Shredding. Is anyone else having this issue? I've been using the default Blizz UI.

This may be merely a tooltip error but is still causing me to misjudge Rip's duration, i.e. forcing me to Rip early for fear of having it drop off completely.

Yup, it's been doing that since Cata release, actually. I use Droodfocus to track my stuff, and I've noticed that on a fully shredded rip it always drops off when there's still 2 seconds left according to the debuff timer. So, just re-rip at 3 or 4 seconds left if you got off all three shred extensions and you should be fine.

Glyph of Shred actually gives 3 seconds per shred. The tooltip is wrong. This means that over 3 shreds you get 9 seconds which is 4 ticks and 1 extra second.

It seems that how many extra ticks the glyph gives you varies. Most of the time if I do a 5cp rip on a dummy, then shred three times, the resulting rip has a total of 12 ticks, which matches the 8 + 4 you predict. However, occasionally the rip will only have 11 ticks. Doing (5cp rip -> shred 3x -> 5cp rip with less than 2 seconds left on previous rip) for a total of 5 fully extended rips gave me 57 ticks, with some rips giving me 12 ticks and others giving me 11.

Off-topic from your current discussion, I'd like to raise the query of whether or not Hit has taken a significant increase in stat value following our bleed nerf in 4.0.6? I've noticed my Shred to most consistently be my second highest damage contributed. I try to maintain maximum up-time of rake and 5 cp Rip as well as 5 cp SR. I may have my rotation and priority askew from what sim's are spewing out as optimal. However, I have to play based on situation in raids. For example, this week was our first attempts against Twilight Council (Yes, we downed them.). I was designated to switch between Feludius and Ignacius during phase 1 to even out our dps spread. (3 melee + 2 ranged) With that being said- Fairie Fire application is up before I Feral charge in. Rake, then shred to 5 cp and apply rip before consuming Ravage! (It should be noted that I don't have 4 piece t-11, and we have an arms warrior in our group, making Mangle null & void while sharing a target). In the case of switching so quickly between the two bosses and how inconsistent it is for me to be able to dps during phase 2, the increase in hit would be more valuable wouldn't it?

Just throwing an observation out there.

I don't really see how any of this would = hit being more important i understand trying to get your bleeds up quickly to max out your dps and it is true in certain situations for certain periods of time hit may increase dps but your overall dps will suffer bc of a lack of crit or mastery on a fight like council our dps is pretty much entirely based on our skill level and the skill level of the tanks as well as the knowledge of the raid leaders who designate what mobs are being attacked when and by who i do fine on this fight feral druids that rank on this fight for 25 man are doing between 16k and 22k wide spread i know but like i said before there are a lot of factors that go into this.


One of the only fights that ive seen that hit and expertise would be a lot more useful and show on the logs as such is baradins hold which isnt really something that we should be worrying about

The other day i actually went to take a look at the logs for him and see what type of dps he pulls what type of up time he has for strength of the panther and honestly i went thru about 5-6 logs with recent dates and he was no where to be seen so idk maybe he quit and abandoned the thread

I'm not actively playing at this time, but I am still taking responsibility for this thread. So yes, I've been doing an awful job of that. On a related note, if someone is interested in taking over the OP for the cat thread (or bear thread, or both) PM me and we can talk.

Edit: Just went through and redid the whole OP. If anything is missing or incorrect now is the time to say so because I probably won't be inclined to make a bunch of changes in a week.

At raid gear levels, extra hit and expertise will not substantially speed up getting mangle/rake/rip on a new target. It takes about 4 attacks on average to get 5 combo points, varying from 3.89 (capped hit+exp) to 4.2 (minimal hit+exp). Thus, capping hit and expertise gets you around .15 of a rip tic per switch, at a cost of, for example, 7.6% crit, which is likely an overall dps loss.

If you're curious about short duration damage (as on adds), you can set up the simulators for a short fight. Although this can do weird things to procs, it should give you a decent overall idea of what's up. For a 30s fight, Rawr gives about a 500 dps loss for hit+exp cap versus uncapped.

Are you going through these posts and reading them? The forums will provide info on which trinkets are best atm and for what reasons based on math. What I'm saying is Fluid Death is a much better trinket then Tia's Grace and can be reforged for mastery. I just feel like these questions could be answered in earlier posts.