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Old 05/03/11, 3:00 AM   #271
Ilmatar
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Feathermoon
4.2 is coming to the PTR soon (source) and, at least right now, Strength will only give 1 AP instead of 2.

Innervate will also now give 5% of the target's mana, instead of the caster's mana.

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Old 05/03/11, 8:06 PM   #272
Exth
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Medivh
Out of curiosity, has any one noticed Rake hitting for far less than it was pre-4.1?
In comparing combat logs from before and after I see my Rake as hitting for ~1k/tick & crit less than it was before patch.
I saw no mention of this in the patch notes or elsewhere. Am I blind? :P

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Old 05/03/11, 8:26 PM   #273
Xaoc
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Eitrigg
I've been having some issues with Rip getting severly bugged out (4k crits), so it wouldnt surprise me if rake was having some issue as well. I've posted the issue on the US bug forums, so it wouldn't hurt to post some additional info/logs.

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Old 05/05/11, 5:54 AM   #274
a civilian
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Sargeras
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to extend the duration of Berserk by 2 + (20 * ComboPoints) sec and your Barkskin ability grants an additional 10% chance to dodge for 12 sec.
Datamined tier 12 4-piece set bonus tooltip (wowhead link). I assume it actually extends berserk by 2 seconds.

Suppose we glyph berserk and ferocious bite. Base energy regeneration is about 12.4/second, including clearcasts and windfury (which I assume only affects clearcasts) and assuming an average offensive ability cost of 38 energy. For simplicity assume 50% crit and no miss chance. Then we have a 1/2 chance to obtain 5 combo points in 3 CP generators (4 ways to achieve this, each with 1/8 probability). The chance of requiring 5 CP generators is small (1/16), so we can say an average of 3.5 CP generators are required to generate 5 CP.

Let us also assume an average CP generator cost of 39 energy and an average finisher cost of 32 energy (realistically these will vary slightly with haste). We use 3.5 CP generators and 1 finisher per berserk extension so each extension costs 3.5*39+32 energy. Therefore if n is the number of times we've extended berserk and h is our haste value,

energy available during berserk = starting energy + (energy regen)(time) = 120 + 12.4(1+h)(20+2n)

energy spent during berserk = (berserk multiplier)(energy per extension)(number of extensions) = 1/2 (3.5*39+32) n

If we spend all available energy during berserk, this yields

n = 6.2(1+.67h)/(1-.42h)

and the berserk is extended by 2n seconds.

If we have 6% haste (i.e. not stacked at all), the berserk is extended by 13.2 seconds. If we stack 15% haste, the berserk is extended by 14.6 seconds.

Suppose we use berserk during bloodlust. The haste hard cap for bloodlust, assuming no miss chance and an average ability cost of 38 energy, is about 18%, so assume we are not haste capped (though realistically clearcast randomness will blur this cap). Then the same analysis applies. If we had 6% haste before bloodlust, we have about 38% after bloodlust and the berserk is extended by 18.5 seconds -- nearly the entire duration of the bloodlust!

Edit: at 3.5 CP generators per finisher as we've assumed, the GCD will actually limit the number of extensions to 8, for a total duration of 36 seconds. This assumes no miss chance and that all finishers are used at 5 CP.

Last edited by a civilian : 05/06/11 at 3:43 AM.

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Old 05/05/11, 10:15 AM   #275
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
It's conceivable that at some point GCD's become the limiting factor in extending Berserk. The absolute limit for extending it with 5CP finishers is +20 seconds. This falls to +14 seconds max if you need 4 GCD's (including misses, non-crits, etc.) per finisher. Obviously it would take pretty good gear and RNG for this to become an issue, but it's a factor that needs to be considered. For this and other reasons it may actually be better to attempt a refresh with less than 5CP, especially when Berserk is close to wearing off. This is a pretty fun bonus, and should also give the people who enjoy simming some busywork for a while.

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Old 05/05/11, 10:36 PM   #276
Jazdia
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
I was doing some napkin math on the feral set bonuses and, depending on your crit level, my numbers were showing that using 2 CP generators was superior to using three because, while you have less of a probability of getting a berserk extension, you use more finishers.

For example:
At 55% crit using 3 CP generators and a finisher you get:
Assuming GCD of one second with no latency and perfect timing you could fit in 8 finishers before berserk expired, with time to finish a 9th if you didn't use the full 3 CP generators on the last one which I did not factor into this.
This further assumes limitless energy which is unlikely to occur out of Bloodlust/Heroism.

0 crits -> 09.11% * 1 = 09.11% = 3 pts
1 crits -> 11.13% * 3 = 33.39% = 4 pts
2 crits -> 13.61% * 3 = 40.83% = 5 pts
3 crits -> 16.64% * 1 = 16.64% = 5 pts

Number of extension attempts at a specific probability of success:
((8 * 40.83%) + (8 * 16.64%) = 4.6) for the 5 pt attempts and so on.

So
4.60 extensions * 1.0 = 4.60
2.67 extensions * 0.8 = 2.136
0.73 extensions * 0.6 = 0.437
Total: 7.173 extensions @ 55% crit. = 14.346 more seconds of berserk on average.

But at 55% crit using 2 CP generators and a finisher you get:
Assuming GCD of one second with no latency and perfect timing you could fit in 17 finishers before berserk expired.
This further assumes limitless energy which is unlikely to occur out of Bloodlust/Heroism.

0 crits -> 20.25% * 1 = 20.25% = 2 pts
1 crits -> 24.75% * 2 = 49.50% = 3 pts
2 crits -> 30.25% * 1 = 30.25% = 4 pts

5.14 extensions * 0.8 = 4.114
8.42 extensions * 0.6 = 5.049
3.44 extensions * 0.4 = 1.377
Total: 10.540 extensions @ 55% crit. = 21.080 more seconds of berserk


This equates to an approximate gain of 47% more extended time over using 3 CP generators. Of course, this napkin math doesn't factor in the myriad of other variables such as procs, other cooldowns, energy regen and haste, etc so I'm sure it's only a rough, starting, view of how the set bonus should be used.

That said, the 4 set isn't what I'm really interested in. The 2 set to me, depending on if it behaves like ignite, could turn out to be quite weak in many situations. It almost seems in direct contradiction to the gameplay the 4-set encourages if it doesn't behave like ignite.

Last edited by Jazdia : 05/05/11 at 10:49 PM.

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Old 05/05/11, 10:56 PM   #277
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
It's always dangerous to assume, but I'd be pretty shocked if the dot does not copy Ignite's behavior. That includes the Ignite munching issue, but due to the differences in mechanics between ferals and fire mages I'd expect it to be less of a problem.

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Old 05/06/11, 4:14 AM   #278
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Well since we usually spam Shred (or at least use it several times in a row, interrupted occasionally by re-applying Rake/Rip/SR/Mangle) or even Mangle when attacking from the front, or as a berserking bear, I do see "munching" problems ahead.

For rogues and DKs, it is filtered a bit since it only procs from critical strikes (though, munching might exist here, too, if offhand auto-attacks proc this as well, but that's not our topic)
Hunters and warriors deal instant damage, at least for warriors even on abilities that have a 4,5/6sec CD anyway.

Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.

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Old 05/06/11, 5:06 AM   #279
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Out of curiosity, what 2pt finishers would you be using? Rip and Ferocious Bite both disqualify (on account of being damn horrid with 2 combo points). A two-point Savage Roar already lasts long enough to stay up the entire Berserk. Sure, you can use it 'for free' (as essentially you'll generate the energy cost in the GCD it took you to put up SR), but even so, I don't see it being worthwhile.

And while I like the idea of 20seconds more of Berserk, I still have my doubts about its actual usefulness. Berserk is only so-so when you don't actually have energy to spend during that time and even in the current length of Berserk it is easy enough to reach the bottom of your energy bar. At zero energy, those two seconds extended Berserk basically just mean one more Shred (or, the energy reduction of half a Shred).

The idea looks appealing as it promotes going into Berserk with a bit of a plan - get to 5 cp and then Berserk for a guaranteed 4 seconds (seeing how you can get a second finisher in during Berserk), but other than that I can't see it having as big an impact as people are hoping for in optimal conditions.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

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Old 05/06/11, 7:04 AM   #280
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
Well since we usually spam Shred (or at least use it several times in a row, interrupted occasionally by re-applying Rake/Rip/SR/Mangle) or even Mangle when attacking from the front, or as a berserking bear, I do see "munching" problems ahead.
That was kind of my point though. As I understand it Ignite munching occurs when two different spells crit at the same time, such as a spell with travel time and a spell that hits instantly landing together. That certainly won't happen with mangle and shred. The other time it occurs is when a crit happens at the same time as an Ignite tick, but since it takes almost 4 seconds to regen enough energy for a second shred anyway it's not common to spam them, basically just during berserk or a string of OOC procs. It'll take some log parsing to determine for sure how big of a deal it is, but mechanically I think we'll be less likely to run into problems than mages are.

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Old 05/06/11, 7:27 AM   #281
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
I'm sorry, I wanted to agree with you, but in retrospect, I just said the same things with different words

Though, I understood munching as a new crit overwriting an Ignite from a previous, larger crit, thus preventing part of the previous Ignite's damage. But you're right, we don't use Shred every GCD, or even every second GCD after the initial buildup (especially once we have Hungerer, staying low on energy will be beneficial)
I think a large factor will be the tick rate, 4 ticks every 1 sec or 2 ticks every 2 sec. The first of course would be way better.

Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.

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Old 05/06/11, 7:33 AM   #282
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
15 seconds uptime, 1 minute cooldown. Every single ability takes us below the 80% needed to trigger Hungerer. There is no reason to be low on energy just for that trinket.

Last edited by Duilliath : 05/06/11 at 7:40 AM.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

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Old 05/06/11, 12:47 PM   #283
Jazdia
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
15 seconds uptime, 1 minute cooldown. Every single ability takes us below the 80% needed to trigger Hungerer. There is no reason to be low on energy just for that trinket.
I believe you need to lose 80% of your max energy to proc it, not be lower than 80% of your max. That is to say, you must be at 19% or lower energy, not 79% or lower.

That might, usually, be easy to do, however in a situation where we'd likely be using a Berserk and getting a lot of extensions, it would likely be one where we have a lot of pooled energy and a haste buff, such as heroism, getting us a lot of bonus energy regen. In such a scenario we would be spamming abilities essentially every GCD, likely as part of a burn phase, and not dropping below 20% energy easily.

Perhaps one way to get the benefit would be to let your energy dip below 20%, Tiger's Fury, then Berserk to get the TF buff, as well as the trinket proc, for the first part of your berserk. While I believe it's usually slightly less than optimal to pop TF and 'zerk together normally, in that situation it may well be worthwhile.

Last edited by Jazdia : 05/06/11 at 12:53 PM.

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Old 05/06/11, 1:25 PM   #284
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Well, since 4.1 Berserk doesn't trigger the GCD anymore, so a combination of TF+Berserk might be viable now. Haven't really tested that yet, did not raid in a while.

Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.

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Old 05/06/11, 2:02 PM   #285
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Jazdia View Post
I believe you need to lose 80% of your max energy to proc it, not be lower than 80% of your max. That is to say, you must be at 19% or lower energy, not 79% or lower.
You're right - completely misread that as 'whenever you lose 20%'. The one-minute internal cooldown does line up neatly with an unglyphed Tiger's Fury though.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

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