[Feral-Cat] Cataclysm Release - Page 5

Slott · 12/26/10, 4:18 PM

Jinchuuriki: You didn't account for 2 yellow gems in your second setup to activate the meta.
Also, tsanga's helm and tier helm both have a socket bonus of +30 agility with a blue socket. (since you mentioned you needed+30 in your prior comment)

Robosaurus · 12/27/10, 12:22 AM

This is a fairly long post, to illustrate the gearing environment currently encountered. I apologise for the length.

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

it seems that your available socket bonuses nudge you in the right direction. The math I listed assumed there were ZERO red socket bonuses and ZERO blue socket bonuses

Socket bonuses increase the power of [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] (hereafter known as R.E.D.). I will attempt to show that these socket colors are not an assumption but a brilliant coincidence.

Head
359 [Tsanga's Helm] Blue +30agi
359 [Stormrider's Headpiece] [Tier11] Blue +30agi
359 [Membrane of C'Thun] Yellow +30 Haste
346 [Mask of Vines] [JP Vendor] Blue +30agi
Blue or Yellow

Shoulder
359 [Poison Protocol Pauldrons] Red +10mastery
359 [Stormrider's Spaulders] Blue +10agi
346 [Thieving Spaulders] Yellow +20haste
346 [Embrace of the Night] Blue +10agi
Red if you take Shoulder offset

Chest
359 [Sark of the Unwatched] Red/Yellow +20mastery
359 [Stormrider's Raiment] [Tier11] Red/Blue +20agi
346 [Vest of Misshapen Hides] Red/Blue +20mastery
346 [Item not found!] [JP Vendor] Red/Blue +20crit
Guaranteed 1 Red, cancels with other socket in chest

Gloves
359 [Item not found!] Red +10 mastery
359 [Liar's Handwraps] Yellow +10 Haste
359 [Stormrider's Grips] Red +10haste
Likely to be Red at the end of Normal Mode Raiding

Waist
359 Conclave Waist (Random Stats) Blue +10agi
359 [Dispersing Belt] Blue +10agi
359 [Belt of Nefarious Whispers] No socket

Legs
359 [Item not found!] Yellow/Blue +20agi
It’s tier, its got optimal stats, go buy it from the vendor

Boots
359 [Item not found!] Yellow +10mastery
359 [Treads of Fleeting Joy] Blue +10agi
346 [Item not found!] Blue +10mastery
Blue or Yellow

We’ll deal with the worst case scenario, in terms of Red sockets. It would be sub-optimal if we could not activate every socket bonus, since we would be only having Red/Green pairs instead of Red/Green pairs + bonuses.

Red: Poison Protocol Pauldrons + Stormrider’s Grips, with a NO-SOCKET belt.
This leaves us with 5 “Effective Red” sockets (Gloves, Shoulders, Chest, Belt, Idol)
Non-Red: Helmet, Chest, Legs(x2), Boots
This leaves us with 5 non-red sockets.

Wait... 5 is not less than 5! How will we activate the meta?

Using a bit of creativity, Maximum Red Gems we can utilize is 4, if we wish to activate the maximum socket bonuses as well as the Meta requirement. So we do the following:
40agi x 4 => Redx3, Prismatic x1
20mastery/hit x 5 + 20agi/hit => Prismatic x 1, other 5 sockets.
However we don’t actually “lose” a socket bonus because we cheated with a prismatic socket.
We will consider Blacksmithing later.

I will have to run some numbers through Mew, but considering there are MORE Red/Green pairs in this setup than my current setup, it is likely R.E.D. will still trump any other meta.

Socket bonus comparison
Let’s assume that in all scenarios you obtain all socket bonuses since you are using R.E.D. This means the minimum value of these bonuses is:
Head 30haste; Shoulders 10mastery; Chest 20crit; Gloves 10haste; Legs 20agi; Boots 10mastery

=117.8

Best case scenario for all red gems with [Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond]
Shoulders 10mastery; Gloves 10mastery;
=20.6

Also, 21agi > 54 crit rating (meta bonus), which you forgot to multiply by 0.76

There's more math to be done, but as has been pointed out already, if you use Red/Green pairing you should be able to use R.E.D. as a dps increase at a low gear level. It is probably unnecessary for these calculations to be done if you have access to Mew. My alt druid with BoE LW epics and 346 gear in every slot is eligible.

TLDR Unless you’re INSANE and going to skip out on Tier11 legs, you will activate every red socket bonus with a red gem when using R.E.D.
Edit: It shouldn't be in huge text, how do I fix that =C

Robosaurus · 12/27/10, 12:34 AM

Sorry for the double post

Originally Posted by Twibs

About reforging and cat stat.

Should I reforge my haste or crit to mastery? I've seen both ways and no definie answer here. So far I'm assuming it's crit to mastery.

Actually, it depends on the quantity. You should check your RSV with Mew! Generally you reforge your lowest ranking stat into mastery OR crit (every piece of your gear should have mastery on it after reforging, and if you have mastery on it naturally, it should have mastery AND crit after reforging). When you approach normal mode raiding BiS, Mastery>Crit>haste, since your 2t11 inflates the value of crit.

There are exceptions based on QUANTITY.

For example, Assassin's Chestplate has 183hit, 253crit.
If we use hit=0.63, crit = 0.72, mastery = 1.03
Hit=> Mastery = 183x0.4x(1.03-0.63) = 29.28+
Crit=> Mastery = 253x0.4x(1.03-0.72) = 31.72+
So Crit in this case would give you a larger dps increase because there is more of it to reforge.

TheJinchuuriki · 12/27/10, 2:44 AM

~I have consolidated all of my findings into my previous post, please delete~

Twibs · 12/27/10, 4:38 AM

IS there a definite answere whether Glyph of Ferocious bite is a DPS loss or gain?

Leafkiller · 12/27/10, 5:07 AM

Originally Posted by Twibs

IS there a definite answere whether Glyph of Ferocious bite is a DPS loss or gain?

I tested it in a variety of setups on Mew and in all cases it was a dps loss. Some setups were small losses, so someone else may have found some setups where it is a small dps gain.

Cala · 12/27/10, 6:26 AM

In regards to the RED vs DSD meta debate:

Tiny backstory/disclaimer: I'm in a fairly casual guild, have not started raiding yet, and half of us are still trying to gear via heroics. So this is more aimed towards someone with either a fresh 85 druid or one that is just now able to get into heroics, not one who has access to raids just yet. Raiding and more gems may slide the results towards one meta over the other, but this is my personal observation using my druid.

Using Mew, I had a 'baseline' of no gems on my gear at all (and therefore no bonuses), but I kept all of my enchants and embossments. (I personally am an enchanter/leatherworker.) No helm enchant. Exalted with Wildhammer, so Stormbolt gloves, and purchased Morrie's, Mask of Vines from JPs.

My stats for this were as follows:

Weapon DPS: 489.2
Strength: 107
Agility: 3447
Attack Power: 799
Haste: 1223
Hit: 413
Crit: 1123
Expertise: 371
Mastery: 987

DPS: 9943

With no belt buckle, I figured up the numbers for a RED meta with only 6 gem slots available and using [Delicate Inferno Ruby] in two red sockets [Sensei's Dream Emerald] for yellow sockets, and [Glinting Demonseye] in blue sockets, matching bonuses. I got these values:

Weapon DPS: 489.2
Strength: 107
Agility: 3598
Attack Power: 799
Haste: 1233
Hit: 493
Crit: 1143
Expertise: 371
Mastery: 1067

DPS: 10491

With a belt buckle, I got these numbers:

Weapon DPS: 489.2
Strength: 107
Agility: 3630
Attack Power: 799
Haste: 1233
Hit: 533
Crit: 1143
Expertise: 371
Mastery: 1087

DPS: 10549

With the DSD and an all agi setup and not hitting any socket bonuses, I got these numbers:

Weapon DPS: 489.2
Strength: 107
Agility: 3757
Attack Power: 799
Haste: 1223
Hit: 413
Crit: 1123
Expertise: 371
Mastery: 987

DPS: 10522

After two hours and a pretty significant headache, it looks to me as though the tip over point of a RED outweighing a DSD is at the point where I get to having 7 gem slots instead of 6. (I calculated a set of numbers, completely forgetting that there's a prismatic socket in the [Silver Inlaid Leaf], then corrected it with my 6 socket numbers.)

For someone who has fewer gems slots, the DSD might be a superior meta, but it seems that once you get past 6, the RED passes it up.

Keep in mind, I could also be doing the math completely wrong.

Robosaurus · 12/27/10, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

Once again, the difference needed to make an agi setup surpass the R.E.D. is ~318

I'm convinced the gap widens as you gear up due to increased value of mastery/crit relative to agility. Mew tells me that R.E.D. is giving me a 1021dps upgrade vs D.S.D, gap was 100dps last week when I began investigating Red/Green pairs. Currently have 10 sockets with 1 red, as well as 2t11.

What settings are you using on Mew? I'm using 400s, Toskk, full raid buffs minus DI/ToTT/Ancient Hysteria.
Not sure how much I can trust Mew since it's telling me I should be doing 22k dps and I'm pulling around 20.8k over 2mins in a stand-still part of an encounter. Hard to judge on world of logs because there's so much movement and +damage mechanics in a lot of fights.

My RSV are different e.g. 2.9+ for AGI.

Another thing, at the end of WOTLK when we had 70%+ crit, did people have RSV with agi at around 3.6 and mastery at 2.7 (mastery was 3/4 the value of agility)? Whereas now, mastery is worth ~40% of agility. I think as we gear up mastery will increase in value relative to agility, and because of this [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] will scale faster than the loss in red gems. I will ponder more *PONDERS*

Slott · 12/28/10, 4:32 PM

I wanted to point out that there are several fights (Nef/onyxia/adds , chimaeron for example) in which you can use feral charge while in melee range for an essentially 10 energy ravage. In fact, you can feral charge these mobs from where feral charge lands you. Odd it works on the adds in the nefarion encounter though, since they're relatively small...but it still works. Probably not accounted for in any simulators, but it's not bad for a 28 second cooldown, and that there are a number of encounters that this works on.

The Grog · 12/29/10, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

So you'll probably have to ask Astrylian about how accurate his Rawr.Cat model is.

Speaking of Rawr.cat, after adding all my current gear I went to look at trinket options. The listed results were bizarre.

Even after correcting the trinket ICDs, the 316 Key was reported as better than the 346 Left Eye. Considering the similarlity of the mechanics between the two, and having over 30% crit, I was expecting the Eye to beat the higher level Key. Not lose to the non-heroic version. The best two blue trinkets were the 346 Key and somehow the 346 Heart of Solace.

Using the 'refresh item from wowhead' option changes ranking, but only one item at a time and somehow I doubt the Left Eye and the Abom in a Jar are so close in value.

I can only conclude that Rawr's trinket modeling is all kinds of strange, and Mew doesn't support blue trinkets. This applies to the web version only.

Husyor · 12/29/10, 9:03 PM

Has anyone taken the time to figure out whether the 3% attack power bonus minus the additional mangles that would be needed to keep it up is worth getting the 4 piece or is it better to stick with 2pc?

Leafkiller · 12/30/10, 1:27 AM

Originally Posted by Husyor

Has anyone taken the time to figure out whether the 3% attack power bonus minus the additional mangles that would be needed to keep it up is worth getting the 4 piece or is it better to stick with 2pc?

Testing this on a T11 premade toon using both the formulation and the sim modes of Mew (my script for the sim) I show the 4 piece set bonus as a 400+dps up - just clicking it on/off.

Ínsane · 12/30/10, 11:47 AM

Is glyph of tiger's fury still best to use , in my case useing mew berserk comes out ahead of both tiger's fury and savage roar.
i would like to hear from you guys on this as i am realy not sure witch thierd glyph to use

Edit sorry i think this would fit better in Simple Q & A thread :/

righthorn · 12/30/10, 4:53 PM

Things seem very much up in the air, especially when the various models are concerned. Depending on whether you use Toskk's formulation or the Mew simulations, you'll get differing answers as to which glyph (TF, SR, Bers) is the 'best'. Not only that, but stat weights will also vary depending on which method you use. Toskk's seems to show Crit as being better than Haste, while the simulation (with my current stats) show Haste has better than Crit.

Not really the clear cut answer you may be looking for; but at this point the best way is to burn gold with dust & at the reforger and try out various options yourself.

RareBeast · 12/30/10, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by The Grog

Speaking of Rawr.cat, after adding all my current gear I went to look at trinket options. The listed results were bizarre.

The parsing of the trinket procs in Rawr are still being worked on. Refreshing from Wowhead actually removes the procs from a lot of the trinkets. You can easily edit the items of interest and add the correct procs to the items. Details of most of our useful trinket can be found in the rogue Cata mechanics thread here at EJ. Once the correct procs are in, the results have seemed correct to me.

The next Rawr release should have most of the trinket issues sorted out apparently.