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01/25/12, 10:40 PM
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#151
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by nephyron
I'm preparing the set for 4.3.2 and I've almost got all 5 tier pieces in their normal version (397).
I've started converting tokens into pieces (shoulders and gloves) because i thought i would use the resto chest as offpiece.
But something keeps me from changing the chestpiece token:
WrathCalc tells me that I'am supposed to do 44150 dps
During the only fight that does not involve movement / buffs (Ultraxion) I always end somewhere between 38k and 40k
I never reach the virtual maximum DPS calculated by WC
- maybe because Owlkin Frenzy is bugged in DS
- maybe an error sometimes
- maybe because WC doesn't take into account latency
For those reasons I'm unsure about what would be better:
Balance chestpiece = +1 mastery = 2% more dmg while in eclipse (1561 mastery) and 2856 haste
or Restoration chestpiece = 170 more haste (3025 haste) and 1395 mastery
(actually i have 2782 haste and 1478 mastery)
Considering the fact that I play with dark intent thus the 3101 haste breakpoint is pointless + I'm going to lose t12 4 pieces bonus and I will cycle thru eclipses slower.
Is it really worth the trade +170 haste when this value does not shorten the cast time by even 0.1 sec (and it shortens the duration of the dots on the target because I'm not reaching any new breakpoint) VS the loss of 2%+ dmg while in eclipse because of more Mastery?
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It's generally accepted that you should get Helm/Shoulders/Pants/Gloves boomkin tier, and Chest resto off-piece. Having the base haste on the chest makes it the better option, and still outplays the mastery gain.
You should make sure a few settings on WrathCalcs are changed before you think about your DPS.
- since you aren't using the Glyph of Starsurge, make sure Starfall is set to "on cooldown" rather than "during Lunar". Also, right above that box is a blue box called "Cast Delay" - set that to your latency (default value is 0.05).
- ensure all the buffs/debuffs your raid applies is mimicked by the settings on WrathCalcs, a lot of people tend to just turn everything to "true" instead of changing the values.
Other than that, I can't really think why WrathCalcs would be reporting a higher-than-average number. Ultraxion is a squirly because of the Hour of Twilight, and having to shift out of the realm is a good 1-2k DPS loss over the entire fight, depending on how early you press the button. And yeah, Owlkin Frenzy doesn't work at all on Ultraxion, so WrathCalcs will be buffing the DPS a little over from that.
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01/26/12, 1:36 AM
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#152
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Glass Joe
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refreshing IS at end of lunar?
I'm switching to boomkin for a few heroic modes, and was wondering if anyone had an opinion about this (especially in regards to the effects of the 2t13 bonus):
Often, I refresh both IS and sunfire at the end of a solar eclipse, but I've been tempted to only refresh MF at the end of a lunar eclipse. My reasoning for this is that I can get within 2-3 SF of a solar when IS ends....
Now that those 2-3 SF will lose the 3% 2t13 bonus, this seems like it may be a bigger deal. Also, if NG is off cd, it seems like it might be worthwhile to get the extra MF ticks (by casting IS before it) even disregarding the 2t13 bonus.
I guess I'm urious what the generally accepted strategy is for dot refreshes in regards to entering/leaving an eclipse state.
Do you always refresh both dots at the beginning and end of an eclipse?
What if you just entered lunar, but your solar IS is still ticking?
Do you do something different regarding lunar vs solar?
Obviously exact number of ticks you get vs casts/procs per eclipse will vary, as will movement requirements, but any general guidance would be much appreciated.
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01/26/12, 6:43 AM
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#153
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Thorium Brotherhood
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Mastery v. Crit
I've been running WrathCalc sims nonstop for two days. Every configuration that I use wants me to reforge into Crit, not Mastery. Generally, reforge into haste without question, make sure hit cap is reached and breached, but then... In the stat priority in the OP it claims that Crit is our weakest stat, however, after finishing the haste/hit/spirit reforges, WC always shows a DPS boost from reforging into crit over mastery. I've seen one other post where someone noticed this as well (on simulationcraft, i think) but found no answer, and so maybe it bears discussing.
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01/26/12, 6:51 AM
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#154
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Soda Popinski
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Originally Posted by lankson
I've been running WrathCalc sims nonstop for two days. Every configuration that I use wants me to reforge into Crit, not Mastery. Generally, reforge into haste without question, make sure hit cap is reached and breached, but then... In the stat priority in the OP it claims that Crit is our weakest stat, however, after finishing the haste/hit/spirit reforges, WC always shows a DPS boost from reforging into crit over mastery. I've seen one other post where someone noticed this as well (on simulationcraft, i think) but found no answer, and so maybe it bears discussing.
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I'm not getting similar results, what gear setup are you using? In my current gear/spec, reforging my neck to Crit rather than Mastery results in a ~20 DPS loss, in the BiS setup it's closer to ~30 DPS loss. Maybe save your profile, click Export and paste the result in spoiler tags?
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01/26/12, 7:22 AM
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#155
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Von Kaiser
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Thanks Slippykins I've never noticed the delay option...it was set to 0 and considering my latency ranges between 80ms and 120ms I've set it to 0,1 and the dps went down to what i'm actually pulling in a real environment.
(Setting owlkin frenzy to 0-1-2-3 talent points doesn't change the dps, i wonder if it is taken into account)
I'm still unsure about 2% damage 60% of the time (elicpse) or 170 haste because when haste does not reach a breakpoint it shortens the dot duration and without 4t12 this would cause me to refresh dots before leaving solar eclipse, wasting 2 gcd and losing NG uptime (and my mastery bonus would be lower with 5 t13 rather than 4 t12).
Considering the t13 bonus is a flat increase of our main nukes maybe increasing the bonus by 2% more every eclipse is worth more than 1/1000 faster tick rate on dots
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01/26/12, 7:28 AM
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#156
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Thorium Brotherhood
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Without any adjustments to the BiS setup from the OP WrathCalc download, I get the same result that you do. However, with my own setup, 2T12 activated, all Raid Buffs turned off, GoIS instead of GoSS, etc. (see below) I'm getting the strange result that crit > mastery. I've gone to a dummy and tested the setup, and truly the result is negligible. But still curious. Thanks for your help.
 ← Click Here
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importcheck
Helm=Obsidian Arborweave Cover,Enchant=Arcanum of Hyjal,Gem1=Burning Shadowspirit Diamond,Gem2=Reckless Ember Topaz (Orange),Gem3=,ReforgeOld=,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Neck=Petrified Fungal Heart,Enchant=,Gem1=Brilliant Inferno Ruby (Red),Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=Spirit,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Shoulders=Deep Earth Mantle,Enchant=0,Gem1=Brilliant Inferno Ruby (Red),Gem2=Brilliant Chimera's Eye (Red),Gem3=,ReforgeOld=Spirit,ReforgeNew=Haste,Random=of the Undertow
Cloak=Drapes of the Dragonshrine,Enchant=Greater Intellect,Gem1=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=,ReforgeNew=,Random=
Chest=Obsidian Arborweave Vestment,Enchant=Peerless Stats,Gem1=Purified Demonseye (Purple),Gem2=Purified Demonseye (Purple),Gem3=Reckless Lava Coral (Orange),ReforgeOld=Mastery,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Bracers=Evergreen Wristbands,Enchant=Mighty Intellect,Gem1=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem2=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem3=Brilliant Inferno Ruby (Red),ReforgeOld=Mastery,ReforgeNew=Haste,Random=
Gloves=Obsidian Arborweave Gloves,Enchant=Haste,Gem1=Reckless Ember Topaz (Orange),Gem2=,Gem3=Brilliant Inferno Ruby (Red),ReforgeOld=Spirit,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Belt=Cord of Lost Hope,Enchant=Ebonsteel Belt Buckle,Gem1=Reckless Ember Topaz (Orange),Gem2=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem3=Brilliant Inferno Ruby (Red),ReforgeOld=Mastery,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Legs=Leggings of Blinding Speed,Enchant=Powerful Ghostly Spellthread,Gem1=Brilliant Inferno Ruby (Red),Gem2=Reckless Ember Topaz (Orange),Gem3=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),ReforgeOld=,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Boots=Boots of Fungoid Growth,Enchant=Haste (Boots),Gem1=Brilliant Chimera's Eye (Red),Gem2=Reckless Ember Topaz (Orange),Gem3=,ReforgeOld=Spirit,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Ring 1=Ring of the Loyal Companion,Enchant=Intellect (Ring),Gem1=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=Hit,ReforgeNew=Crit,Random=
Ring 2=Signet of the Twilight Prophet,Enchant=Intellect (Ring),Gem1=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=,ReforgeNew=Mastery,Random=of the Flameblaze
Trinket 1=Foul Gift of the Demon Lord,Enchant=,Gem1=,Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=Spirit,ReforgeNew=,Random=
Trinket 2=Vibrant Alchemist Stone,Enchant=,Gem1=Brilliant Chimera's Eye (Red),Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=Mastery,ReforgeNew=,Random=
MH=Scepter of Azshara,Enchant=Power Torrent,Gem1=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem2=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem3=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),ReforgeOld=,ReforgeNew=Haste,Random=
OH=Orb of the First Satyrs,Enchant=Superior Intellect,Gem1=Brilliant Queen's Garnet (Red),Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=,ReforgeNew=Mastery,Random=
Relic=Singed Plume of Aviana,Enchant=,Gem1=Brilliant Inferno Ruby (Red),Gem2=,Gem3=,ReforgeOld=,ReforgeNew=Spirit,Random=
Spec
Nature's Grace: 3
Starlight Wrath: 3
Nature's Majesty: 2
Genesis: 3
Moonglow: 0
Balance of Power: 2
Euphoria: 2
Moonkin Form: 1
Typhoon: 1
Shooting Stars: 2
Owlkin Frenzy: 3
Gale Winds: 0
Solar Beam: 1
Dreamstate: 2
Force of Nature: 1
Sunfire: 1
Earth and Moon: 1
Fungal Growth: 2
Lunar Shower: 0
Starfall: 1
Furor: 0
Blessing of the Grove: 1
Natural Shapeshifter: 2
Heart of the Wild: 3
Perseverance: 3
Master Shapeshifter: 1
Glyphs
Prime 1: Insect Swarm
Prime 2: Moonfire
Prime 3: Wrath
Major 1: Innervate
Major 2: Focus
Major 3: Rebirth
Raid Buffs
5% Spell Haste: TRUE
5% Crit Chance: FALSE
5% Spell Crit Debuff: FALSE
8% Spell Damage Debuff: FALSE
10%/6% Spellpower: None
3% Damage: FALSE
5% All Stats (except Spirit): FALSE
326 MP5: FALSE
2126 Mana: FALSE
Focus Magic: FALSE
Dark Intent (Haste): FALSE
Dark Intent Uptime: 0.9
Replenishment Uptime: 1
Innervate: Yourself
Consumables
Potion: None
Food: None
Battle Elixir: Draconic Mind (F)
Rotation
Moonfire: Always refresh
IS: Always refresh
Starfall: On cooldown
Starfall Targets: 1
Starsurge: Always
Thorns: Unused
Thorns Hits: 5
Misc
Char Name: T13
Char Race: Night Elf
Target Level: 88
Target Dummy Mode: TRUE
Cast Delay: 0
Astral Leather: TRUE
Prof1: Alchemy
Prof2: Jewelcrafting
Engineering Tinker: Synapse Springs
Bloodlust/Heroism: Never
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01/26/12, 7:45 AM
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#157
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Soda Popinski
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Firstly, why are you turning off raid buffs? Any discussion about what's optimal will assume the presence of the major raid buffs, dummy DPS really doesn't matter beyond testing mechanics. However, you're correct, in that situation Crit is slightly better than Mastery according to the sheet.
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01/26/12, 8:16 AM
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#158
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Thorium Brotherhood
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Originally Posted by Tecton
Firstly, why are you turning off raid buffs? Any discussion about what's optimal will assume the presence of the major raid buffs, dummy DPS really doesn't matter beyond testing mechanics. However, you're correct, in that situation Crit is slightly better than Mastery according to the sheet.
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I was turning off raid buffs because I was attempting to minimize external influences. Like I said, it was a simulation experiment. It's obviously not optimal (or realistic) for a Raiding situation, but I did find it curious, that with buffs turned off, crit is slightly better than mastery for me. As for dummy mode, even if I turn it off (FALSE) I get the same results with slightly more realistic dps. As I begin to fill BiS, and with Raid Buffs up, Mastery edges out Crit. Mostly, It was a curiosity, and I was hoping that there might be some explanation beyond "get better gear and get buffed" which was my own conclusion. I'm glad you found the same results that I did, as that means that I'm not entirely crazy! Thanks for looking at it. My personal conclusion, all told, is that Mastery ≈ Crit. and priority depends upon your Raid Comp. and gear.
(I reserve the right to change my mind at any time on any thing when presented with better evidence.)
EDIT: With an a few different raid comp's in mind, I've checked the Crit v. Mastery simulation again. With a melee-heavy composition (so, yes, Tecton, you are correct) Crit edges-Mastery, but with a caster heavy composition (preferred for DS, generally) Mastery edges out Crit. I intend to reforge into Mastery and see if I can squeeze a few hundred more DPS out of my gear.
Last edited by lankson : 01/29/12 at 4:26 PM.
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01/26/12, 9:11 AM
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#159
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Soda Popinski
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I guess if you're raiding with an all melee 10 man raid giving you zero buffs at all, Crit edges Mastery out very, very slightly on paper. In any realistic gearing/buff situation, that's not the case. That doesn't mean Crit isn't inferior to Mastery in how you should evaluate your gear.
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01/27/12, 4:16 AM
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#160
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by nephyron
Thanks Slippykins I've never noticed the delay option...it was set to 0 and considering my latency ranges between 80ms and 120ms I've set it to 0,1 and the dps went down to what i'm actually pulling in a real environment.
(Setting owlkin frenzy to 0-1-2-3 talent points doesn't change the dps, i wonder if it is taken into account)
I'm still unsure about 2% damage 60% of the time (elicpse) or 170 haste because when haste does not reach a breakpoint it shortens the dot duration and without 4t12 this would cause me to refresh dots before leaving solar eclipse, wasting 2 gcd and losing NG uptime (and my mastery bonus would be lower with 5 t13 rather than 4 t12).
Considering the t13 bonus is a flat increase of our main nukes maybe increasing the bonus by 2% more every eclipse is worth more than 1/1000 faster tick rate on dots
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You can easily test this for yourself and see you will have lower DPS with the mastery. Since you have DI your argument is Mastery>Haste once you reach the 2639 GCD bp, since the next bp is unreachable at something around 3650. So you would simply need to reforge Haste-->Mastery and get as close to the 2639 bp as possible. Just make sure you are always swapping Haste for Mastery. If at 3025 haste, dropping 170 haste for 170 mastery is an increase in DPS, than dropping 340 haste for 340 mastery would surely be twice as effective if what you are asserting is true.
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01/27/12, 1:09 PM
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#161
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Von Kaiser
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No, but 2856 haste should be enough to have cast times short enough to not refresh dots from an eclipse to the other (with Dark Intent). Considering that sooner or later I'll get the Heroic Insignia I thought that since the next haste breakpoint at 3600+ is unreachable the value of haste would drop when trinket proc + haste on gear makes the cast time of wrath reach the gcd.
Actually I have a very high uptime on Nature's grace and my Wraths are 1.4 sec.
When the trinket proc (normal version) the cast time reach 1.1sec.
Considering the fact that heroic insignia gives even more haste the cast time will probably reach the GCD.
If this happens every 140 seconds and the rest of the time my casts are pretty fast and takes me to the next eclipse 1-2 spells before dots drops off, then maybe mastery could be better considering that wrathcalc compute a Patchwerk fight and not a real fight.
If:
- Haste shortens the duration of my dots until I reach a breakpoint;
- The 2 tier pieces requires the presence of IS on the target;
- I have to move during the boss and cannot keep casting to move the eclipse bar
Then I prefer to have less haste (but enough to reach an eclipse in a reasonable time) to increase the duration of IS on the target and not have to refresh it (because if IS is not there, then the 2 pieces bonus is void) and balance the slower tick rate with bigger damages because of more mastery.
TLDR: in my opinion Mastery should change the weight of the tier bonus more than haste in a fight that involve movement and become better than haste when Haste > X value that let you reach the eclipse withing 1 sec before the dot ends. (only if you have DI)
(with 410 ilvl gear I will surely use the chest piece as offset because the stats increase is very big)
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01/29/12, 3:24 AM
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#162
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Piston Honda
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Perhaps you just enjoy math but you are talking about microscopic changes in DPS that are highly dependent on fight situations. You are way WAY over thinking tier itemization.
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01/30/12, 6:52 AM
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#163
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Von Kaiser
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I've tested it on PTR the dps difference is abysmal... btw I have decided that even if wrathcalc says It's a DPS improve i won't use 5x t13 without 1x410 because the 4piece bonus is really really negligible.
While testing my dps on the target dummy I've noticed that with 5 sec less starsurge comes off the cooldown exactly when a Shooting Stars proc, making the bonus set half useless.
If i had a spell casting while the cooldown ended almost always a SS proc would nullify the bonus set or if the spell came off cooldown before a SS proc it was too close to the next eclipse making the cast of it out of eclipse a dps drop, nullifing once again the bonus set.
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01/31/12, 4:07 AM
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#164
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Glass Joe
Worgen Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Good day people.
On the Warmaster Blackhorn fight I stay in solar eclipse for the first phase of the fight cause of multidotting. Due to the way mastery works for us, its worth is halved cause we change out of eclipse. But since I have a much higher uptime on eclipse during this fight(from 70-80% roughly), doesnt that change the worth of mastery as it now applies to more of the spellcasts?
I am gathering mastery gear to test this out. Any opinions?
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01/31/12, 4:43 AM
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#165
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Soda Popinski
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Technically, yes, Mastery would give you a higher damage output in P1 of the Blackhorn fight. However, I maintain a normal gemming/reforge profile for this fight so that I can contribute more strongly in P2. Getting Goriona to fly off sooner and killing Blackhorn himself more quickly is probably more useful than some more multidot damage in P1 (since P2 can be fairly rough on tanks/healers new to the fight). While you are working on P1, you might consider swapping in some Mastery trinkets until it starts getting smoother and replacing them once you guys are comfortably hitting P2.
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