[Resto] Cataclysm 4.3 (Dragon Soul) - Page 5

Thedave · 12/18/11, 1:23 AM

Originally Posted by Playered

I fail to see how Tranq will be inferior in any meaningful way by having red instead of green? none of it will overheal and it will heal exactly the same amount - especially in 10 man where each member will get 2 ticks (as it will alternate between 5 people, and then the other 5 people due to the spike in health) regardless.

Blue is unquestionably bad for us either way but I don't believe it has ever been suggested that we take blue.

Why do you think that Tranq won't overheal? I'm looking over my logs from last week from when I had Green, and it did overheal on the channel - even without a +100% modifier. If I had Red, I imagine that it would have overhealed quite a bit more.

As an example: imagine that I have a normal hit on the Channel for 14000. Instead that hit becoming 28000 on the person it hits (and possibly overhealing), that person is instead hit for 15400, and every other person in the raid is hit for 1400. At that point of the fight when everyone's taking constant damage, I'm guessing that the latter distribution is better.

In terms of the Red vs. Green debate, I'm somewhat on the fence when not considering Tranq. The way I understand Green is that it makes a copy of the spell (as long as it heals for 1500+), divides by 10, and gives that amount to everyone in the raid. This is great for when every single person in the raid is getting hit for huge amounts and you simply don't have the GCDs to cover as many as you'd like. On the other hand, Green doesn't proc off things that hit for less than 1500: namely, low-stack LBs, later WG ticks, and non-crit RG ticks.

NarrillNezzurh · 12/18/11, 1:46 AM

Originally Posted by Thedave

In terms of the Red vs. Green debate, I'm somewhat on the fence when not considering Tranq. The way I understand Green is that it makes a copy of the spell (as long as it heals for 1500+), divides by 10, and gives that amount to everyone in the raid. This is great for when every single person in the raid is getting hit for huge amounts and you simply don't have the GCDs to cover as many as you'd like. On the other hand, Green doesn't proc off things that hit for less than 1500: namely, low-stack LBs, later WG ticks, and non-crit RG ticks.

Playered, when you said on page 2 that efflo was not being included in Essence of Dreams, did you mean that its extra healing is simply showing as Efflorescence instead of Essence of Dreams, or that it isn't benefiting from the buff at all?

In the case of the latter, red would unquestionably be the better choice, as it would provide a similar benefit to tranq as green, as well as providing more substantial benefits to our healing overall. In the case of the former, the two should be completely equal from a mathematical standpoint, and we should prefer the more uniform healing distribution of green.

Blue looks great in theory, due to the huge benefit to our HoTs, which constitute the vast majority of our healing, and the mana cost reduction, which doubles our TTOOM 10 times over. However, it falls short on two fronts: it does almost nothing for tranquility, which, as Thedave pointed out, is crucial once the five minute mark is reached; and it extends our TTOOM, even through a straight rejuv spam, long past the enrage, wasting much of its benefit.

Since I don't believe Playered meant that efflo and GotEM were not receiving the benefit of the buff, but rather that they are simply being logged incorrectly, green is, as Thedave has concluded, the obvious choice.

Sasazuka · 12/18/11, 1:54 AM

Log for 10m heroic where I had red buff. Tranquility with red buff is extremely strong at the end where the damage is coming in rapidly. Other than that, Tranquility feels more like a mana CD. Looking at my logs, overall I had 30% overheal with Tranquility and 2.4% the second time.

EDIT: If we want to compare, we should probably look for a log where a druid doesn't have red buff and run an expression in WoL for something like "amount <= 1500"

EDIT: Doesn't seem to be a buff that tells you what buff you took (aside from green)

jula · 12/18/11, 3:35 AM

Can anyone check again if the proc from Eye of Blazing Power - Item - World of Warcraft triggers a stack of Deep Corruption? We just killed it and I didn't think to replace this trinket. I wonder if I was just lucky or the proc is really safe.

Playered · 12/18/11, 9:08 AM

Originally Posted by NarrillNezzurh

Since I don't believe Playered meant that efflo and GotEM were not receiving the benefit of the buff, but rather that they are simply being logged incorrectly, green is, as Thedave has concluded, the obvious choice.

Feel free to check a log of a Druid with green where the log is set after buffs have been gained (first instance of Essence of Dreams) showing. If Efflorescence is being counted then your EoD should equate to 50%~ of your healing with only minor differences in the value of healing done vs your other spells.

Take one of my attempts: here
Essence of Dreams is 3.8 million and my total is 8.8 million.
If you take away Efflorescence and the GoTEM instant Rejuvenation my total healing becomes 7.5~ million (which almost matches EoD perfectly). Otherwise there is 1.2 million not included in EoD and that is a pretty big chunk of my healing that is excluded - for example my top 4 highest spells (RJ, Eff, WG, Tranq) basically total 4 million healing themselves.

If you can disprove this and show with some evidence that our healing is being correctly utilized by the green buff I would gladly accept it. Also notice how none of the Druids which have killed heroic (25) Ultraxion have had green - the apparent "obvious choice", none of those guilds seem to be the type to just wing it and some flimsy assumption or to take an inferior option by choice.

(sorry for the multi-quote)

Originally Posted by Thedave

The way I understand Green is that it makes a copy of the spell (as long as it heals for 1500+), divides by 10, and gives that amount to everyone in the raid. This is great for when every single person in the raid is getting hit for huge amounts and you simply don't have the GCDs to cover as many as you'd like. On the other hand, Green doesn't proc off things that hit for less than 1500: namely, low-stack LBs, later WG ticks, and non-crit RG ticks.

This is the 2nd iteration of the green buff you are thinking of - it has changed since then. All healing done regardless of value is added to a 1 second pot, and then shared over the raid after that 1 second has ended. There is no mimic spell or threshold for the amount of healing counted. If this still happened then a Resto Shaman would never get a benefit from green while using Healing Rain - and they do.

Kluian · 12/18/11, 12:03 PM

While I can't say for 10 man, in a 25 man environment Red is really strong for druid. In the last 70 seconds of the encounter our druid was pulling ~135k HPS with red. Eff was 30% of his healing (26k ticks). Couple red with the fact that you can swiftmend specific classes for healing bonus (he did 15% on a rshaman since we had no kitty dps for 20%).

• Hamlet · 12/18/11, 5:59 PM

Fixed gems in OP.

NarrillNezzurh · 12/18/11, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

Feel free to check a log of a Druid with green where the log is set after buffs have been gained (first instance of Essence of Dreams) showing. If Efflorescence is being counted then your EoD should equate to 50%~ of your healing with only minor differences in the value of healing done vs your other spells.

Take one of my attempts: here
Essence of Dreams is 3.8 million and my total is 8.8 million.
If you take away Efflorescence and the GoTEM instant Rejuvenation my total healing becomes 7.5~ million (which almost matches EoD perfectly). Otherwise there is 1.2 million not included in EoD and that is a pretty big chunk of my healing that is excluded - for example my top 4 highest spells (RJ, Eff, WG, Tranq) basically total 4 million healing themselves.

If you can disprove this and show with some evidence that our healing is being correctly utilized by the green buff I would gladly accept it. Also notice how none of the Druids which have killed heroic (25) Ultraxion have had green - the apparent "obvious choice", none of those guilds seem to be the type to just wing it and some flimsy assumption or to take an inferior option by choice.

I didn't mean to disagree, I just wasn't sure if you meant that efflo and GotEM were actually not transferring, or if you meant they were simply being logged incorrectly.

If they are not transferring, as you say, then red is obviously better.

Sasazuka · 12/19/11, 1:17 PM

EDIT: I apologize if the player name is messed up. Not quite sure how to fix it.
EDIT: Also it seems ~41k HPS was the best for a resto druid with green buff, did anyone manage to find anything higher from WoL?

I took a look at a log where a resto druid took the green buff.

The first thing I looked for is whether "Essence of Dreams" could heal less than 1500/10=150. Happened once (also once in another log):

← Click Here

So we have logs for two wave of healing done by "Essence of Dreams" (~79 and ~925). For the first "Essence of Dreams", I'm guessing the cutoff occurred at the first tick of LB and the subsequent tick was either ignored or placed into a pool for the next "Essence of Dreams". I believe this implies that any healing done by the initial tick of LB is NOT contributing to the next pool for "Essence of Dreams". However, the next wave of healing done by "Essence of Dreams" is only 925 (meaning 9250 healing was duplicated and divided) but it's not obvious to me what healing done could result in only +925 from "Essence of Dreams".

Possible guesses at what's happening:

healing done by certain spells is ignored
talent/mastery (not likely since the LB tick was semi-accurate)
issues with logging
there's a gap between the cutoff where any healing done is not contributing

Feel free to take a look here. If that link doesn't work properly try this query "(spell = "Essence of Dreams" AND amount < 150) OR (sourceName = "K�*ttypurry" AND type = TYPE_HEAL)"

EDIT: It feels that we'd need to change the way we heal in order to benefit more from "Essence of Dreams"

Thedave · 12/19/11, 1:55 PM

Tried out Red yesterday and it's definitely a lot better than Green. Something's either going on with Green that negatively impacts its theoretical benefit for druids, or something's up with certain spells double-dipping from Red. The HPS spike from Tranq was about the same between Green and Red, but normal spells were causing HPS spikes that were much higher with Red than with Green.

Based on Efflo being 32% of my healing done with Red, I'm going to guess something's going on there. On similar fight lengths, I showed 5.2m healing total from Efflo with Red and 1.2m healing logged from Efflo with Green. Even applying that same 32% proportion to healing from Essence of Dreams and adding that total to the 1.2m logged from Efflo, total Efflo is still less than half of the amount with Red: 5.2m with Red vs. 2.3m with Green. Thus, even if Green were applying to Efflo, the spell seems to gain a lot more from Red.

Playered · 12/19/11, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Thedave

Tried out Red yesterday and it's definitely a lot better than Green. Something's either going on with Green that negatively impacts its theoretical benefit for druids, or something's up with certain spells double-dipping from Red. The HPS spike from Tranq was about the same between Green and Red, but normal spells were causing HPS spikes that were much higher with Red than with Green.

Based on Efflo being 32% of my healing done with Red, I'm going to guess something's going on there. On similar fight lengths, I showed 5.2m healing total from Efflo with Red and 1.2m healing logged from Efflo with Green. Even applying that same 32% proportion to healing from Essence of Dreams and adding that total to the 1.2m logged from Efflo, total Efflo is still less than half of the amount with Red: 5.2m with Red vs. 2.3m with Green. Thus, even if Green were applying to Efflo, the spell seems to gain a lot more from Red.

I hadn't really paid attention to this before, but a normal tick of 4.5k going to 18k with red buff most likely means you get the +100%(4.5k->9k) bonus to the Swiftmend, and then +100%(9k->18k) bonus to the Efflorescence afterwards which would explain things. All your other healing seems to be scaling correctly though.

Rather stupid that it scales twice with red and not at all with green.

frdrk · 12/19/11, 5:31 PM

I remember a conclusion about Efflorescence double dipping from percentage increases back in BWD/BOT - from my anecdotal evidence on LFR and normal Ultrax, it does seem like it does an usually high percentage of my healing. But again, this could stem from the patchwerk-esque clusterfuck positioning and even raid damage.

Thedave · 12/19/11, 6:03 PM

Confirmed that Efflo is double-dipping from Red on Ultra.

Search for the spell here if you want to see the range of spells before and after Red buff (3500-6500 to 12500-26000).

Sasazuka · 12/19/11, 6:27 PM

EDIT: Thanks to SkagasmAddict for pointing out what I was overlooking.

Looking at my logs:
- Swiftmend crit for 54225 (12% is 6507) and Efflorescence ticks of 33953 (26028)
- Swiftmend crit for 88446 (12% is 10613.52) and Efflorescence ticks of 27486 (42454.08)
- Swiftmend for 39312 (12% is 4717.44) and Efflorescence ticks of 12217 (18869.76)

I specifically looked at Swiftmend with no overheals because I wasn't sure if the 12% was only on healing done or not. This is all healing done with red buff, however, the numbers aren't consistent.

Also, I thought with 2005 and 5% raid buff Efflorescence should tick 9 times (same as WG) but I'm not seeing that. Is it because if it completely overheals it doesn't show up in the logs? But I still see some entries where Efflorescence completely overheals. I'm seeing anywhere between 5-8 ticks. Maybe the 5% raid buff is not being re-applied properly when the player uses "Heroic Will"? I see the same thing in Thedave's log.

14 Swiftmend with 541 Efflorescence ticks is awfully low (assuming 10 players and 7 ticks, I should get a maximum of 980 ticks) (misunderstanding on my part it should be 3 players * 9 ticks * 20 times Swiftmend-ed = 540). I can understand that some ticks were lost occasionally to players through "Heroic Will" but I'm looking at only Efflorescence ticks on myself on a fight that's mostly standing still.

SkagasmAddict · 12/20/11, 9:07 AM

Swiftmend overhealing has no effect on Efflorescence. Both the 88k and 39k are roughly in line with each other. Your 54,225 has 39,386 overheal which puts it in line with the 88k one. I'd assume the rest of the variation in numbers comes from other sources also double dipping (Harmony, Gift of Nature, Imp Rejuv, Master Shapeshifter, whatever "bonus healing recieved" the targets may have).

Efflorescence smart heals 3 people per tick. You also ignored your 6 crits. 3*9*20=540. So 541 is lower than we'd expect with Nature's Grace and Essence of Life procs, but there are a couple things that could cause that.

I don't think there's anything to be concerned about there.