[Balance] WrathCalcs - Page 47

Stommped · 01/09/13, 12:29 AM

Thanks! That works and the haste stat valuation looks good!

• Hamlet · 01/09/13, 11:53 PM

Tier 15 2-piece is 10% crit to Starsurge, 4-piece is 1000 crit and mastery during NG.

Ok so I was really lazy and just gave the 4-piece 100% uptime for now. In the spreadsheet model you're always in NG for Eclipse so it's true for Mastery, and NG uptime is something like 95% anyway even at low haste.

Attached sheet makes 2-piece look like about 2% and 4-piece around 4%, so both quite nice.

It won't be as good in practice since movement and the like eats into NG uptime, but not by a factor of 2, so it should be a fine bonus.

Stommped · 01/10/13, 1:01 AM

I'm wondering, does this increase the value of SotF? Higher Eclipse uptime to get more casts buffed by this 1000 mastery bonus? Or is it not large enough to even consider?

♦ Tecton · 01/10/13, 4:48 AM

I wouldn't expect it to show as a huge gain on paper because of how high our NG uptime is in the kind of rotation the sheet is working from (i.e. a second or two outside of NG as we leave Lunar without SotF, really no downtime with SotF). However, in real fight conditions where you have to move/CC/multidot/etc you'd very likely see a better return from SotF. I'm not convinced it's enough to drop Incarnation for it, though.

Formatting disappeared again, fixed:

• Hamlet · 01/10/13, 8:34 AM

What's happening to it? Maybe have to change something if it's happening every time I save.

♦ Tecton · 01/10/13, 9:19 AM

Trying to figure that out, what year's Excel are you using (2007/2010/etc)?

nephyron · 01/10/13, 9:45 AM

-- confused WC topic with discussion topic --

• Hamlet · 01/10/13, 10:59 AM

Here's a resave of the one you just uploaded, from my work computer, which is Windows Excel 2007. But the problem is probably at home, where I've recently started using Mac Excel 2011.

• Hamlet · 01/10/13, 11:27 AM

Incidentally, the armory import is pulling down an upgrade value of "1" from a JP upgraded item (you can try it with my Alch Stone), which breaks everything since the sheet current needs a "2" to represent 8-ilvl JP upgrades.

♦ Tecton · 01/10/13, 12:44 PM

That makes sense on the version front, should be able to work around that from now on. Will change a few things and see if it fixes the issue. A simple ilvl check on the upgraded items should catch any JP upgrades too, I'll give that a bash later tonight.

♦ Tecton · 01/10/13, 3:43 PM

Quick attempt to fix the VP upgrades issue. I've set it to filter any upgrades on blues and just grants them an extra upgrade instead. I've checked it on your trinket Hamlet, if anyone else can check any upgraded VP stuff they have that'd be great.

Stommped · 01/13/13, 5:17 PM

Question about how the spreadsheet values Crit.

I was always under the impression that as the amount of Crit you have increases, it's per point value decreases (also with Haste). Now in the spreadsheet with the BiS gear, the value of Crit is 2.18 DPS and the value of Int is 4.32 DPS. Or in other words Crit is worth 50.5% of Intellect.

If I manually add in 15000 Crit AND 15000 Intellect, I would expect the value of Crit to now be a smaller percentage of Intellect due to what I describe above. Doing this in WC changes the value of Crit to 4.33 DPS and the value of Int to 6.54 DPS, or in other words Crit is now worth 66.2% of Intellect.

Is my thinking of how Crit and Haste function just wrong, or are there other factors at play here?

Thanks

Tuscarora · 01/13/13, 8:32 PM

There's little reason for the value of Crit to decrease in absolute terms (DPS/point) as you add more crit. The value of Crit relative to other stats, however, will probably decrease because whenever you increase the amount of Crit the scaling of the remaining stats improves. But that also applies to Int: increasing the amount of Int increases the marginal value of crit, so the net effect on the value of crit relative to that of Int of increasing both Int and Crit is undefined, it can go either way depending on the form of the DPS function and the quantities involved.

In your case, since DPS scales harder with Int at our gear levels then it makes sense to me that the marginal value of crit (which scales with Int) increases by more than the value of Int (which does not scale with Int at all since spells have linear coefficients on Int) when you add equal quantities of both stats.

It could also be some kind of increasing returns (say, something along the lines of "increasing your crit means you have to refresh your dots less often, thus increasing the amount of nukes you cast so you can crit more spells")

Stommped · 01/16/13, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Tier 15 2-piece is 10% crit to Starsurge, 4-piece is 1000 crit and mastery during NG.

Ok so I was really lazy and just gave the 4-piece 100% uptime for now. In the spreadsheet model you're always in NG for Eclipse so it's true for Mastery, and NG uptime is something like 95% anyway even at low haste.

Attached sheet makes 2-piece look like about 2% and 4-piece around 4%, so both quite nice.

It won't be as good in practice since movement and the like eats into NG uptime, but not by a factor of 2, so it should be a fine bonus.

It's probably safe to use a 75% uptime for this bonus until we learn more about this tier's mechanics. I believe Feng is the best fight this tier for NG uptime (Garajal would be absolute best but most Moonkin go down), and if you look at most Feng parses NG uptime is generally around the high 80's. The majority of fights in a tier will generally have more than 1 target and a decent amount of movement, and for those fights on WoL right now NG uptime varies between the 60's and 70's.

It's just more than safe to assume that with the way they design bosses these days, anything higher than 90% uptime is probably unrealistic, and the spreadsheet would do more for the community with a much more realistic % uptime that way people don't replace higher ilvl pieces with LFR tier gear because WC overvalues the 4pc for every boss fight in the tier.

Miraclous · 01/16/13, 5:26 AM

I think what would be more important than to look at just uptime it would have in current gear/reforges is to see how it might influence the value of haste. Once we drop the T14 4p we're back to having the 5283 and 10289 breakpoints. Going for 10289 haste might very well be better than going full crit and sticking at ~7-8k haste (just a guess where we might end), due to not just the extra dot tick but also how it increases the value of the set bonus.
With 10k haste (compared to the 5-6k most moonkins going full crit have now) it probably wouldn't be too hard to get 100% NG uptime on a dummy and if it would actually cause an overlap on NG singletarget, that wouldn't be too bad since a dummy rotation is unrealistic as Stommped said.