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01/20/11, 11:58 PM
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#16
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Killgore9998
Astrylian, I've been a big fan of Rawr ever since I heard about it, but it appears that I'm yet another victim to have been using it incorrectly all this time, or something, as it tells me (as apparently it has been telling others) to gem and enchant pure stamina. I went through every guide and step I could find to properly configure Rawr (to use it correctly as you put it in another thread) but I must have missed something because nothing has changed.
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If you find Rawr too intimidating to use, I'd like to humbly offer my spreadsheet as a simpler alternative.
Simple Bear Mitigation Spreadsheet | The Inconspicuous Bear and use the EP values to make your gearing choices.
The main decision you have to make is whether to use the TTL values or the Mitigation values for Stamina. My best advice is to use Mitigation unless you feel that you are getting gibbed by bosses at your level of content.
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01/21/11, 10:02 AM
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#17
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Grend
Simply put as long as you have the Enforce Gem Requirements checked, you make sure you have the correct buffs checked, you ensure to change the "Threat value" (I use 0.00), and you choose the appropriate "Survival Soft Cap"/"Target Damage (Raw)" you should be getting the results others are claiming to get. For example, if I choose Heroic t11 - Rawr is Stamina/Dodge Rating oriented, if I choose Normal t11 - Rawr is Agility/Mastery oriented.
In other words there aren't that many options that should be drastically changing the ORDER of your RSVs.
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Yeah, I was experimenting with those values last night and I was able to get it to give me the correct results after reducing the survival soft cap and the target damage by 33%, but it isn't clear that those values are accurate. Not a big deal though.
Originally Posted by tangedyn
If you find Rawr too intimidating to use, I'd like to humbly offer my spreadsheet as a simpler alternative.
Simple Bear Mitigation Spreadsheet | The Inconspicuous Bear and use the EP values to make your gearing choices.
The main decision you have to make is whether to use the TTL values or the Mitigation values for Stamina. My best advice is to use Mitigation unless you feel that you are getting gibbed by bosses at your level of content.
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Not too intimidating, just opaque. I'll check out your spreadsheet anyway.
I appreciate the tips guys, but really the main reason for my post was to serve more as an alert that there is a lot of misinformation being spread out there as a result of people loading up rawr, using the default values, and becoming convinced that one should gem and enchant pure stamina, resulting in flamewars in trade chat channels and in the official forums. Especially given the way it used to be in Wrath. That's why I was really just trying to offer a suggestion: that either tips such as these be available as an easily accessible faq, perhaps from the rawr main page, or for the default values to be lowered to a point that your average joe would be likely to find useful, allowing the power raiders to adjust it upwards in order to suit their purposes.
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01/24/11, 3:50 PM
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#18
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Von Kaiser
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I am not sure I agree with threat being a non-issue and that stacking stam is acceptable if deemed necessary without any threat issues.
While working on Nef and now that we are working on Heroics, I have been forced to stack stam and dodge in order to survive. I am having terrible threat issues and I was wondering if other heroic raiding bears were seeing any issues at all? I can't understand why I havent heard about this anywhere else, but everywhere I read everyone is saying "threat is a non-issue and can be completely disregarded". Problem is most of the people saying this havent gotten past 9/12 or 10/12 normal mode and all seem to be stacking agil yet. If I single target focus on threat I can just stay ahead of DPS, if I need to tank more than one target I run the risk of losing one of them. We are currently working on Halfus as an example. I am activating and tanking the Storm which is our first kill target. I am also tanking Nether which is MD'd to me. We are tanking on the whelp cage and stacking all of the drakes/whelps and Halfus on top of each other for maximum aoe splash damage. I activate the storm, pop barkskin and FF/Mangle him when he becomes aggro. I then start lacerating to get pulverize up until FF is up again and toss a demo in there once both drakes are to me. Then I switch to the Nether and FF/Mangle it, but that is all the time I can give to it before switching back to Storm or else I lose it. Some times I will lose the Nether to the mage if he gets good RNG on his AoE (we have him pulling 50k some times and 150k others). We have even resorted to starting on Halfus for a few seconds to give me a lead on threat.
Anyone have similar troubles? I have actually reforged hit back into my gear and reforged the "other stat" instead just so I can minimize my misses early in a fight while I am ramping my threat.
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01/24/11, 5:25 PM
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#19
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Piston Honda
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Threat being a non-issue is outside of the first 30 seconds. Every tank has issues within that window without a Tricks/MD. Thrash out-threats Lacerate pretty early on, and you should be using it on CD. FF is also minuscule threat compared to every other ability you have. It should only be used when you're low on rage (which should rarely happen unless you get a severe dodge streak).
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01/24/11, 6:10 PM
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#20
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Piston Honda
Tauren Druid
Shadowsong (EU)
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Threat is mostly a non-issue for me simply due to Berserk. To Natasmai, you talk of tabbing, stacking Lacerate, Pulverising - why is Berserk + Mangle spam (even of you tab between your two targets to make sure it hits) not working for you?
If you position correctly and/or ask for 10s before the Whelps are released you should be able to get a good number of Mangles on both Drakes which is a pretty decent head-start on any DPS that is AOEing.
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01/25/11, 4:00 PM
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#21
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Von Kaiser
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Yeah I forgot to mention I was also popping berserk. thanks to the PMs I got suggesting that. I think my problem was waiting for the nether to reach me before popping the berserk. I am going to pop it to build threat faster on Storm and then let it splash over to the nether when it reaches me.
I cant really rely on thrash because the whelps are there and I dont want them on me. Plus I dont think you can control any of those extra hits like the berserk or maul glyph, they just hit any other target. So I cant assume those are helping my threat on my second target, but I am swipe/thrashing after a few seconds when the whelp/halfus tank is set.
As swill pointed out, I think if I use berserk as a "tricks or MD" on myself on the storm to build a early lead, I should be able to tab target over to the nether and get a few mangle spams on it before berserk dies.
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01/26/11, 1:54 AM
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#22
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Natasmai
Anyone have similar troubles? I have actually reforged hit back into my gear and reforged the "other stat" instead just so I can minimize my misses early in a fight while I am ramping my threat.
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If you're really THAT hard pressed for threat (no such issue for me even using stamina gear, and I don't think we magically lose 30% threat going from normal to heroic), reforge into expertise since it basically gives double the benefit of avoiding misses (by mitigating dodge and parry at the same time) except in the spell interrupting department.
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01/26/11, 8:58 AM
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#23
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Von Kaiser
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While you can't guarantee which target you hit with the splash, an aspect of berserk you are missing is that it lets you mangle spam. Simply swap between the two drakes as you mangle and you should be fine. That is one of the big changes that bears need to get used to again, just relying on aoe and splash abilities doesn't always cut it these days. It fell out of style in Wrath but I would suggest to most bears to try mouse over lacerate and mangle macros, for example:
#showtooltip
/use [@mouseover, harm] Lacerate
Last edited by Ogbar : 01/27/11 at 8:32 AM.
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01/26/11, 3:11 PM
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#24
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Glass Joe
Pandaren Monk
Alexstrasza
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Originally Posted by Ogbar
#showtooltip
/use [@mouseover, help] Lacerate
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I think you mean "harm" instead of "help" in the cast conditions.
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02/05/11, 12:37 PM
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#25
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Banned
Night Elf Druid
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
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About the information given by the threadposter.
10 & 25raids.
Its different between the two raids and its more forgiving to use stamina in a 25man raid.
However in a 10hc you need to do everything in your power to not only survive but also not drain your healers mana for no reason. Stamina is therefor one of your worst options to gem/enchant etc.
Once you have entered heroicmodes even with some blues left you have plenty of stamina on the gear alone, which gives you the oppertunity to use the rest of the space for some sort of mitigation.
I have my own preferences but as the poster said it depends often on the boss you are facing.
This thread is obv. to help people out, so it would be nice to see that the correct information is up here.
If you point out which type of raiding the information goes for I think some people will find it easier when they start out, before they got the chance to try everything themselves. Or for those that isnt too in to testing on their own.
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02/05/11, 7:28 PM
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#26
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Casually Serious
Night Elf Druid
Lightbringer
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Stamina's only purpose is to survive burst damage - once you have enough stam to survive a worst case scenario, your time to live is the same unless you have enough stam to survive another melee hit. Stamina is further devalued by the way healing has been designed for this expansion - for the Nef fight, tanks are receiving on average of 4-6% overheal, meaning that for the vast majority of the time, tanks are not at full health, and any addition stam you have has literally no affect on your survivability.
On the other hand, agility is a mitigation and avoidance stat, giving crit, AP, dodge, which contributes to savage defense uptime and absorb amount (an attack that is dodged also means that SD will be up longer).
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02/07/11, 12:15 PM
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#27
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Piston Honda
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From my experience, and from fiddling with rawr and other tools.
When you are breaking into a tier (normal or heroic or new tier) with the previous tiers loot then stamina is king.
Once you have a foothold in the new tier and a reasonable amount of the new tiers loot (3+ pieces), then Agility reigns supreme.
Consult Rawr or similar for specific values. Stamina does have it's place and role, but it's value is exceptionally variable.
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02/07/11, 2:51 PM
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#28
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Glass Joe
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It looks as though it is confirmed that us bears will be having some threat nerfs shortly: from the 4.0.6 patch notes:
# Lacerate damage has been reduced by approximately 20%.
# Mangle (Bear Form) weapon damage (at level 80+) has been reduced to 235%, down from 300%.
# Maul damage has been reduced by approximately 20%.
# Pulverize weapon damage percent has been reduced to 80%, down from 100%.
I don't think we can be surprised with the threat nerf with the damage that bears were able to put out.
However, I'm kind of surprised that there are no survivability changes in the patch notes. I was under the impression that druids were underperforming in that department, and expected at least a token buff.
Are druid tanks doing better than I believed? The new agility focus has given us a good lead on avoidance over other tanks, but at the expense of a noticeably lower health, as well the other tanks seeming to have more reliable masteries. Is our dodge just that good? Or is our mastery actually competitive?
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02/08/11, 11:05 AM
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#29
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Glass Joe
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I would definitely like to know how hit and exp gearing will be affected by the 4.0.6 patch.
I know vengeance is what makes us do our threat, but if you can't hit it, you can't make threat.
Already with maximum avoidance gear on I can feel the strain of the now better geared DPS creeping up on me.
Is there a possible minimum hit/exp we should shoot for or continue to disregard it?
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02/08/11, 12:57 PM
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#30
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Von Kaiser
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Has anyone actually been having problems with threat? Other than maybe at the 30 seconds mark when misdirections and tricks fall off I tend to be so far ahead of the DPS on threat that it is a complete non issue.
In fact since Cata, I can't recall ever seeing anyone pull threat at any time other than during those first 30 seconds, which you can just berserk during.
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