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Old 07/10/07, 12:24 AM   #136
Efejel
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Kellarus View Post
Non-gem test:
Average non-crit: 1860
Average crit: 3666
197% crits

Gem test:
Average non-crit:1858
Average crit:3897
210% crits

The less than 200% crits confused me at first, untill I realized that if you add 55 to the crit numbers it almost exactly equals 200% and 212% crits. I guess the starfire idol only applies once, regardless if its a crit or hit
Hmm... that's... wierd.

Suggestion for testing: low-rank moonfire. You get the slightly better crit rate with a narrow damage range and no cast time. And ideally you need to compare the boundary (min-max) cases, not the average.

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Old 07/10/07, 1:09 AM   #137
nero
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackrock
Just a quick question rather than making a new thread.

I've seen most DPS specs go the way of 40/0/21 (i think >_<) for Natures swiftness and subtlety but was wondering If anyone had some numbers or had done some testing on if Improved FF (3% hit for tanks mainly) was worth it for the raid over perhaps the ability of the moonkin to increase his/hers dps via subtlety and NS.

I did some estimates and generally thought that it would provide the raid (for the estimates presumed 3 warriors(1MT), 3 rogues (hunters dont need hit)) would possibly benefit the raid more so than the 20% reduction in threat that a moonkin would use.

Anyways just thought i'd ask to see if anyone had been thinking of it

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Old 07/10/07, 1:27 AM   #138
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
You want imp FF, I mean it's very good return for the point cost when you add up all the DPS it gives to all the melee and the extra TPS for the tanks.

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Old 07/10/07, 2:42 AM   #139
nero
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
You want imp FF, I mean it's very good return for the point cost when you add up all the DPS it gives to all the melee and the extra TPS for the tanks.
I think i need more sleep, just realized you get subtlety and imp FF.. with a build like http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0tbrzicsLuAZZxxcx

Thanks tho =.=

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Old 07/10/07, 4:06 PM   #140
Nerfy
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Zuluhed
Personally 5/5 in Sub is a waste of points for a Moonkin, to me anyway. I have 2/5 for 8% and the 2% cloak enchant for a total of 10% and on boss fights I'm never above the tank...even with a chain of crits. Also losing that 4% hit is HUGE. I don't see how any Moonkin who plans on raiding not have it. You only need to get to 12% +hit from gear with it or 16% without it. I know that I personally don't have tons of gear with +hit layin around that gets me to the 16% without the talent yet, but if you do then good for you.

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Old 07/10/07, 5:46 PM   #141
Efejel
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Nerfy View Post
I have 2/5 for 8% and the 2% cloak enchant for a total of 10%
Well, threat reduction from different sources are (allegedly) applied multiplicatively. So you have 1 - (.98 * .92) = 9.84% threat reduction. But I can't imagine >2 pts. subtlety being that important to all but the best geared Moonkin.

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Old 07/11/07, 2:07 AM   #142
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Thinking about it I'd probably spec like that:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MtbrzicsguAZZxxcb

While threat reduction for a DPS class is awesome, if mages do find with 10% threat reduction (with raid buffs on top of course), so should a moonkin. If you really find yourself threat capped drop the regen while casting, it's not all that much especially if you're threat capped you shouldn't be having mana issues (as you have to stop due to threat) and can free up those points for threat reduction. If you're not threat capped get the mana regen as I did in the linked build ;p

Make sure to always have salv on when DPSing, obviously, or no tank (except maybe a perfect player) can hold aggro off of you if you're good even if you get 5/5 sublenty.

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Old 07/14/07, 2:34 AM   #143
 Lorewanderer
Moof.
 
Lorewanderer's Avatar
 
Lorewanderer
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
This talk of threat has gotten me thinking.

As it is a balance talent and this is more or less the de facto balance thread, I was wondering if anyone knew when the damage modifier from brambles is applied. Specifically if you have the 3 pc Cenarion set bonus (+5 damage and 150% duration on thorns), does it apply the brambles modifier before or after adding the damage?

I'm not really sure of the swing speed for bosses, but if you were up against a fast-hitting mob, an extra ~24-30 threat per hit (3/3 brambles + set bonus, depending on the order it is calculated) could really add up.

With a theoretical mob landing 3.3 hits per second, that's another 100 TPS for the tank. If half of your raid is threat limited, assuming melee range with salv, another (very very roughly) 1k DPS that could be generated just from swapping in an outdated 3-set before the fight, and spending three points, two of which I can never decide about anyhow.

Am I way off in one of my assumptions, or is this just someone nobody has bothered to think about before?

(e) Hrmm, ok. So from a brief look through WWS, it seems the boss delay is quite a bit larger than that of the ones I was used to in other games. Moroes, a 'fast hitting' boss, is landing 30-40 hits during a 3 min fight. So rather than 3.3 hits/sec we're probably seeing a hit per 3 seconds (given the amount of running around he does with vanishes and all). So the rather nice 100 tps gets reduced to a very trivial 10tps.

Probably only worthwhile then if you have a tank with awful avoidance. Oh well. At least I don't have to worry about bugging friends to go beat up stuff in MC to finish up that bonus. heh.

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Old 07/14/07, 6:15 AM   #144
Dioneirra
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Khaz'goroth (EU)
Originally Posted by Efejel View Post
[...]But I can't imagine >2 pts. subtlety being that important to all but the best geared Moonkin.
Well, i am a somewhat average geared Moonkin Druidess (~1000 Spelldamage plain, while raiding 25 instances usually about ~1200 fully buffed), and regularly hit the Threat Cap with 3/5 Subtlety and no enchant (i did test various amounts of Subtlety in Heroics until i decided to go 3 points for being the best cost/effect result) if i get the chance to start chainfiring and happen to get crit-series. Of course that might be a sign of a less than average tank, but still, i can reproduce this effect. After 2.2 i will get myself a Subtlety enchant (right now theres almost no enchanter left with the AQ recipe), and reevaluate the investment in talent points.

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Old 07/14/07, 9:40 AM   #145
Caliane
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Skullcrusher
Originally Posted by Lorewanderer View Post
This talk of threat has gotten me thinking.

As it is a balance talent and this is more or less the de facto balance thread, I was wondering if anyone knew when the damage modifier from brambles is applied. Specifically if you have the 3 pc Cenarion set bonus (+5 damage and 150% duration on thorns), does it apply the brambles modifier before or after adding the damage?

I'm not really sure of the swing speed for bosses, but if you were up against a fast-hitting mob, an extra ~24-30 threat per hit (3/3 brambles + set bonus, depending on the order it is calculated) could really add up.

With a theoretical mob landing 3.3 hits per second, that's another 100 TPS for the tank. If half of your raid is threat limited, assuming melee range with salv, another (very very roughly) 1k DPS that could be generated just from swapping in an outdated 3-set before the fight, and spending three points, two of which I can never decide about anyhow.

Am I way off in one of my assumptions, or is this just someone nobody has bothered to think about before?

(e) Hrmm, ok. So from a brief look through WWS, it seems the boss delay is quite a bit larger than that of the ones I was used to in other games. Moroes, a 'fast hitting' boss, is landing 30-40 hits during a 3 min fight. So rather than 3.3 hits/sec we're probably seeing a hit per 3 seconds (given the amount of running around he does with vanishes and all). So the rather nice 100 tps gets reduced to a very trivial 10tps.

Probably only worthwhile then if you have a tank with awful avoidance. Oh well. At least I don't have to worry about bugging friends to go beat up stuff in MC to finish up that bonus. heh.

Thorns. yea. A normal thorns damage over a full 8minute fight is ususally like 2000-4000 damage.
A trivial 10 tps as you said. No reason "not" to cast it. But by no means worth the 3 points for improved.



I'm not sure how the cenarion bonus works with brambles.
I did the math on root a while back. It gets a very large +damage value due to its long duration. After talent it was somethign like 175% of +damage.

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Old 07/14/07, 2:01 PM   #146
Thorondorchrom
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
Originally Posted by Caliane View Post
Thorns. yea. A normal thorns damage over a full 8minute fight is ususally like 2000-4000 damage.
A trivial 10 tps as you said. No reason "not" to cast it. But by no means worth the 3 points for improved.
Brambles may not be worth the investment for thorns, but don't forget the added damage to Entangling Roots. If you are ever soloing something, an improved roots can be an effective third DoT (MF, IS) having ticks of 200-300 with some decent gear. Although roots may not work well in raids, thorns may still be viable if blizz made +spelldmg also increase thorns damage (or did they do this already?). But in normal 5mans with faster bosses, brambles may be more effective.

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Old 07/16/07, 7:13 PM   #147
Nobbynob Littlun
Von Kaiser
 
Nobbynob Littlun's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Doomhammer
What I'd REALLY love to see for a spell at the bottom of the balance tree would be something like...

Sun and Moon
N* Mana
Channeled Spell
Shafts of sunfire assail your target, dealing X* damage to the target every second for 10 seconds. This is reflected as shafts of moonglow to the target's target, healing for Z*% of the damage done.

N*,X*,Y*: Don't ask me what these numbers should be, because I haven't a clue.

I'm thinking a 4 min cooldown, with arcane damage, would make it a fairly big deal in PvE, without being a bastard in PvP (if it were on 8 min, it'd have to be really powerful, and if it were fire school of magic, we would just laugh in the face of spell interruption). But being on 4 min instead of 2, they could conceivably ramp it up enough that you'd gain DPS using it instead of your normal routine - so there's no reason not to whip it out.

This would be a useful talent spell for the raiding scene, I think. And it'd look cool, with the twin shafts of sunlight/moonlight pounding down, damaging the boss and healing the tank.

Last edited by Nobbynob Littlun : 07/16/07 at 7:14 PM. Reason: Typos, as usual

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Old 07/20/07, 3:27 AM   #148
Efejel
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonblight
I think >>>this thread<<< is the NEW unofficial place for kicking around Moonkin/Balance suggestions, Nobby!

Last edited by Efejel : 07/20/07 at 4:05 AM.

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Old 07/20/07, 7:14 PM   #149
Caliane
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Skullcrusher
Efejal, if your still looking to update.

There is a new flask being added in 2.3 patch.

It will be 80 nature/holy/arcane damage.

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Old 07/23/07, 1:29 AM   #150
Moginheden
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sentinels
Any chance you can add the Idol of the Raven Goddess, (9 spell critical strike rating to entire party)

It would be cool to have it both as estimated party contribution, (5x your personal) and just how it effects your personal dps, but the party wise thing would have to be optional if you do it at all.

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