Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 109

Risk · 06/21/08, 5:54 PM

First off, let me say thank you so much for putting the effort into making the moonkin dps spreadsheet, its been immensely helpful!

I have a question about what I am guessing is a glitch somewhere in the math, but which I wanted to run by everyone here (especially ef) about the gemming of some of my gear. On two occasion, I have had stamina gems in sockets, one in a yellow slot(no socket bonus) and one in a blue slot(socket bonus of 2 damage). Both times, when I have replaced the gems with reckless pyrestones (5haste, 6damage) on the spreadsheet, I have seen significant losses in DPS on the spread sheet numbers. Each time I have changed the gems my DPS has dropped by around 15 DPS. I'm not losing any set bonuses, all I'm doing is gaining haste and damage at the expense of stamina. What gives?

-Edit-

I believe I have figured my issues out, I was losing the amount of blue gems required for my meta to work, resulting in an overall loss. First post ever gone to waste! oh well

Starfox · 06/23/08, 8:08 AM

Would be a nice addition to generate links to Loot Rank for WoW, or similar sites, on the DPS page. (clickable or just for c&p)
Like the Yo! simulator does it for enchancement shamans

Nano Gurth · 06/25/08, 6:04 AM

Originally Posted by Laith

perhaps you have inspiring prescence checked (the draenei racial group buff) accounting for 1% spellhit making cap 136-137

no, it's not checked..being alliance i always check together wrath totem+insp presence, to make calculations for being with or without shammy...i still guess there's something wrong in the xls on this

Öwlcapwn · 06/25/08, 1:58 PM

I try and read thru all the pages in this thread but there are some conflicting views, this seems to stem from the lack of SWP level boomkin population. Currently I run at about 1250~ arcane damage( i use sunfire instead of spell damage) raid buffed is about 1400~, 25%~ base crit in moonkin and 200~ haste. My starfire is casts at about 2.5 I roll with 4/8 T6 i switch my gear around based on group synergy and also to test live numbers instead of the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet sesems to be a good starting point but it doesnt seem to be as accurate as it could be.

My question is what is the general concensus on min maxing stats? What numbers should a farm BT/MH moonkin look for? I see a lot of 1392 spell damage raid buffed means to stack haste instead, but should i also try and push more crit? I usually rely on non tier slots for crit, and my rings and weapon give me most of my haste. Should i try and push for 30% base crit in moonkin instead of so much haste? and has anyone tried no haste just damage and crit? The reason i ask is there are several fights that are pretty much stand and shoot fights in which me and our best warlock are neck and neck about 2k. He has little to no haste only crit and spell damage(some ridiculous number like 1600 shadow buffed) and all he does is spam SBolt which i know is what he should be doin for his build. So again just wanting to pick people brain a bit more on the subject. Thanks for the feedback

Thermomenes · 06/26/08, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by Öwlcapwn

I try and read thru all the pages in this thread but there are some conflicting views, this seems to stem from the lack of SWP level boomkin population. Currently I run at about 1250~ arcane damage( i use sunfire instead of spell damage) raid buffed is about 1400~, 25%~ base crit in moonkin and 200~ haste. My starfire is casts at about 2.5 I roll with 4/8 T6 i switch my gear around based on group synergy and also to test live numbers instead of the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet sesems to be a good starting point but it doesnt seem to be as accurate as it could be.

My question is what is the general concensus on min maxing stats? What numbers should a farm BT/MH moonkin look for? I see a lot of 1392 spell damage raid buffed means to stack haste instead, but should i also try and push more crit? I usually rely on non tier slots for crit, and my rings and weapon give me most of my haste. Should i try and push for 30% base crit in moonkin instead of so much haste? and has anyone tried no haste just damage and crit? The reason i ask is there are several fights that are pretty much stand and shoot fights in which me and our best warlock are neck and neck about 2k. He has little to no haste only crit and spell damage(some ridiculous number like 1600 shadow buffed) and all he does is spam SBolt which i know is what he should be doin for his build. So again just wanting to pick people brain a bit more on the subject. Thanks for the feedback

Few clarification points.
1) As I understand the math, people here are telling you to stack haste when the difference btwn your haste and buffed spell damage is 1392.
2) your cast time can't be 2.5 with just ~200 spell haste. You need 314 spell haste to get a 2.5s starfire. So either you are estimating the average cast time with the up time of your NG or you are over estimating and your real cast time with 200 haste is ~2.67s.

To answer one of your questions, "has anyone tried no haste just damage and crit?", the answer is yes. Of course they have. Gemmed haste wasn't introduced until 2.4. Prior to that, top boomkins like Vandiego had nothing but +dmg and crit to work with. Afaik they were not doing 2k dps without the newly introduced haste. Shadow Destro locks benefit from each other in raids. So the more shadow destro locks in your raid there are, the more their dps goes up. They don't have to have haste to put up such numbers.

If you are in 4/8 T6, then you should be close to 30% starfire crit already. Meaning that if you gem for more crit, you will be pushing above that. Gemmed crit will always be sub-par to straight damage or haste gems.

Riverside · 06/26/08, 3:53 AM

Ok, so today we did Hyjal and i went Moonkin (Offspec) and tried to see what i could do for dps.

Wow Web Stats

Currenly im running a 46/0/15 build. I didnt pick up the Treants because from my PoV they always just get 1 shot and are a waste of mana/gcd. Any input on this?

(Unbuffed) I have 4pc T6, with 1216 spl dmg, 154 hit, 20.53%crit, and 73 haste which = 4%.

For my rotation i was doing Imp FF, MF, IS, SFx4, then would just go to a MF, IS, SFx4 until FF would run out.

My avg DPS seemed a little low to me (considering gear), i was only doing an average of 1100. Should there be some kind of a different rotation to be using, or should i regem, ect. I want to try and be around 1300-1400 dps unbuffed.

I dont do any idol swaping or any of that, im just using [Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess]

As for trinket wise i swap around my ashtounge exalted trinket with quags eye, and for my 2nd slot i use the Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone

Any input would be appriciated.

Thermomenes · 06/26/08, 4:04 AM

Now for a question of my own.

I feel like I am under performing in my raids. Dps meters like recount and WWS have my average dps as 1150-1550 in Bt/hyjal/sunwell. But my spreadsheet says I should be pushing 1850+ with the buffs i get in my raids and estimating my trees do 10k damage each time they are up.

So, here is the typical raid setup for me. 284ms ping. Quartz cast bar. 4/8 T6. Spriest. Resto Shaman. DC:Crusade and ISC trinkets. Band of the Eternal Sage. Drums of Battle x2 in group. Typical cast rotation is MFx1, SFx6 and trees when up.

1518.4 buffed spell dmg
32.50% buffed starfire crit
hit capped
229 spell haste

Buffed spell damage - spell haste = 1289.4

The spreadsheet says that stacking haste will increase my dps more than pure spell damage gems so I do that. This obviously goes against the 1392 rule. But if the sheet is wrong, then is the stacked haste dropping my dps by 300 or is something else? Or a combination?

I am really good with hitting my rotation and try to use quartz to time my casts.

Suggestions to reach my max potential would be helpful.

Click my name to go to my armory.

Efejel · 06/26/08, 4:47 AM

Originally Posted by Thermomenes

The spreadsheet says that stacking haste will increase my dps more than pure spell damage gems so I do that. This obviously goes against the 1392 rule. But if the sheet is wrong, then is the stacked haste dropping my dps by 300 or is something else? Or a combination?

There is an error in the haste calcs that was pointed out earlier in the thread... I've corrected it locally & hope to upload a fix with that & adding the S4 gear, but I need to find my disc with MS Office & get that installed before I can make the changes to the .xls in a manner I'm comfortable uploading. (I trust OO.o to read MS-generated files, but not vice versa, and I'd prefer not to introduce too many compatibility problems.)

Originally Posted by Starfox

Would be a nice addition to generate links to Loot Rank for WoW, or similar sites, on the DPS page. (clickable or just for c&p)
Like the Yo! simulator does it for enchancement shamans

I'll look into that.

Moonkin Kai · 06/26/08, 12:11 PM

Hey, I'm a moonkin raiding BT/MH and I feel as if I'm not doing as well as I should be dps wise and i'm not sure how to improve it. My stats are:

1252 Arcane damage (unbuffed), 1412 buffed
144 hit (normally have a draeni priest in group for +1% hit)
17.51% crit (non moonkin)
117 haste
Rotation=MF, SFx5 (2t6)

Are there any stats inparticular, I should be concentrating on in order to prove to my guild I can do good dps. my dps value's are random, I reached 1450 on Rage yesterday, yet only 1200 on Nan'jentus.

Also, with the 1392 rule, should I reach 1509 spell damage buffed, before I stack more haste?

Öwlcapwn · 06/26/08, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by Thermomenes

1) As I understand the math, people here are telling you to stack haste when the difference btwn your haste and buffed spell damage is 1392.
2) your cast time can't be 2.5 with just ~200 spell haste. You need 314 spell haste to get a 2.5s starfire. So either you are estimating the average cast time with the up time of your NG or you are over estimating and your real cast time with 200 haste is ~2.67s.

I've seen that 1392 number thrown out a lot in this thread and was having a lot of trouble figuring out exactly what people were refering too. At first I though it was the damage cap at which point you stack haste, ty for the small clarification on that. I also wasnt sure about the crit number to shoot for, my starfire crits about 30% of the time in raids. I wasnt sure if I should try and shoot for a 35-40% as long as i didnt sac the spell damage / haste numbers significantly.

as far as the 2.5 starfire cast time I used ~ a lot to represent a rough estimate. I have several pieces of gear I switch in and out depending on my group set up, what fight I am facing, and to test some numbers. With my max haste (273 I think it is) I can get to 2.55 I usually sit around 2.67. Which makes me a very happy camper to get blodd lusted and cast 2.1 / 1.7 starfires LAWLBOOM. anyway I am a leather worker and pop haste drums, i keep the spell damage drums on me as well to pop during bloodlust.

which brings me to another theory question, We just downed kalecgos this week (server first woot) and said hello to Brutallis. We had several classes go Leatherworking as per strategy suggestion and simple numbers on how much more damage it would bring raid-wide. Then some of these people heard rumors that in WOTLK they will nerf the drums (something about you cant string the drum buffs, you get a debuff that will not allow you to get a drum buff for 2 minutes) causing some of the new made drummer go back to other professions. GG that hurt my dps I've seen my numbers go from 2k+ dps with three drummers down to 17-1800 with one drummer. If our DPS is solid I imagine the drummers are probably not necessary but I wantd to know the consensus? I've been considering dropping leatherworking to enchant (for my endgame rings) or JCrafting for the BOP neck from SWP. anyway thank again for all the feedback.

Thermomenes · 06/26/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

There is an error in the haste calcs that was pointed out earlier in the thread... I've corrected it locally & hope to upload a fix with that & adding the S4 gear, but I need to find my disc with MS Office & get that installed before I can make the changes to the .xls in a manner I'm comfortable uploading. (I trust OO.o to read MS-generated files, but not vice versa, and I'd prefer not to introduce too many compatibility problems.)

Since the public sheet is inaccurate and you have a personal working copy, could you give me a short analysis of how badly I am gimping my dps by gemming for straight haste gems with the stats I posted?
I am wanting to know if I should waste the badges on getting 5 or more new gems.

Thanks for the help Ef.

• Adoriele · 06/26/08, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Thermomenes

Since the public sheet is inaccurate and you have a personal working copy, could you give me a short analysis of how badly I am gimping my dps by gemming for straight haste gems with the stats I posted?
I am wanting to know if I should waste the badges on getting 5 or more new gems.

Thanks for the help Ef.

Short analysis: Don't waste the cash/badges. The sheet over-weights haste, yes, but not by a hugely significant amount (you would need 1576 haste for it to double-weight). At best you'll gain 10 DPS from those 5 gems, most likely much less.

Benita · 06/27/08, 4:52 AM

Originally Posted by Öwlcapwn

I've seen that 1392 number thrown out a lot in this thread and was having a lot of trouble figuring out exactly what people were refering too.

We had several classes go Leatherworking as per strategy suggestion and simple numbers on how much more damage it would bring raid-wide. Then some of these people heard rumors that in WOTLK they will nerf the drums (something about you cant string the drum buffs, you get a debuff that will not allow you to get a drum buff for 2 minutes) causing some of the new made drummer go back to other professions.

The 1392 is for pure SF spam, which is the best "rotation" if you start gaining SWP gear. For other rotations that include instants the value is higher rather than lower. There is also a value where crit becomes better than spelldmg in a 1:1.2 gem friendly conversion, but its just not reachable with current gear. There is also a value for hit vs spelldmg which was mentioned in some post on this thread. It was somewhere 700ish meaning before that 1 spelldmg is better than 1 hit.

It all got to do with different conversion rates and item budgets. Also spelldmg is an absolute increase in damage while the other stats increase by percentage of your current damage.

Using IFF in your rotation favours haste very slightly by the way. Very slightly means the assumed 2% personal dps loss you have by using it, gets reduced to a 1.4% dps loss with ~800 haste due to the gcd reduction.

As for drums, appeal to the dpsers in your guild to be reasonable. WOTLK even brings a new profession plus will probably throw all current profession gains out the window to be revamped for a new system, the same way it changed for BC. It is also still way off and if you just reached brut, you will probably still have wipe raids for months.
A 5% dps increase that costs ~3k gold (materials to skill it up, materials for drums and materials to get your old profession back before wotlk) and lasts for a full instance is not unreasonable. Takes 2 weeks of doing dailies and if they would just get the buff by doing those, noone would skip it i bet.
SWP is full of dps races, they don't stop after brut.
The info however is true and noone but full hunter or melee groups are complaining about that change as the "need" to be a Leatherworker for classes that can't use any of the crafted armor or even the leg enchants, instead only level it for one specific extra consumable seems like a poor mechanic.

Derivel · 06/27/08, 3:44 PM

Hello there balance friends. Here comes yet another person asking questions =p.

First off, I have no real access to T5 content at the moment .My guild is in SWP content at the moment and I am only in the guild socially. There are very few other raiding guilds on my server horde-side, and of those that are in T5 content I do not believe their raid schedule is compatible with the time I have available. This relegates me to badge gear for now.

So, I'm planning my next badge upgrade, and the slot that could use it most is my chest. I was playing around with the spreadsheet and had some interesting results comparing the [Item not found!], the [Blessed Elunite Coverings], and the [Embrace of Starlight].

It appears that tormented demonsoul loses to both of the leather pieces in pretty much all situations, but that getting my own innervate gives me about a 10 dps advantage with the embrace of starlight (assuming getting gem bonuses with blue quality gems).

I have heard it said that the Embrace is really a sidegrade compared to the Blessed Elunite, and was wondering if 10 dps is low enough to be considered a sidegrade, or if we just consider that 10 to be an unreliable approximation due to the fact that it comes from regen and would thus vary with fight length and other factors like that.

Saving 25 badges would not bother me at all if this is the case

.

Starfox · 06/27/08, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

I'll look into that.

sent you a pm how i did it in my local copy, as the lootrank links have quite a few flags in it, but you only need a few stats for boomkin.
pm also includes a partial link with everything that is static for every moonkin, 0 for agi/str/..., every checkbox selected etc.
hope this saves you some time with how to build a functional link to lootrank. would appreciate it in upcoming versions of the sheet