Namsar

For note, I got a little bored one day and modified the v.70 spreadsheet to read in armory data and update all your items based off it. In theory you could do the same thing to get data for any item regardless of it it was entered manually or not.

Alas there was many bugs, and Efejel had already gone to v0.71 so I canned what I had done.

 

Benita

There is such a tool for feral tanking itemization called Rawr: WoW Forums -> >>> Rawr (Beta 3) Now Available (UPDATED)

Maybe you can ask the author to edit his sourcecode to your needs.

 

Disbeliever

hi there.

I am a moonkin on TH, doing ssc / the eye / mount hyial pretty soon

have around 900 spelldmg / 33% crit (including talents) 16% hit and almost 100 manaregen while casting.

I don't get why there are ppl saying that you need high spelldmg.

A moonkin is a critmachine. His talents gives bonusdmg to crits.
meaning high (around 5K for me atm) crits, and preferably many.

Most warlocks mages ain't outdps'ing me.
With the talents of minus aggro and the pally buff i won't take aggro as well

i basicly manage to keep sustained dps of over 900 most of times.

If i run oom? not really just figure out when to use innervate early in the fight use mana pots and a second innervate end fight.

If you get gear out of ssc / the eye you easy can get over 35% crit / 16% hit and have unbuffed over 1K spelldmg (meaning buffed spelldmg is over 1200 with pots / food)
you do over 6K starfire crits (that's basicly 2K dps:S)

i am atm working only for crit crit and more crit i want every 2 spells a crit...
meaning you would have 3sec cast and 2.5 sec cast => 5.5sec cast doing a non crit and a crit => 2.2K non crit and around 6.3K (or something) crit so in 5.5 seconds you do 8.5K dmg is a dps of over 1500 dps..... that's what i call DPS

 

Caliane

I would suspect you are very much fudging your numbers a bit.
When making these theoretical predictions, and actual in game numbers, the fact is, spellcrit costs more then spell damage per dps increase. You can look at gems to see 9 damage is equal to 8 crit in itemvalue, or 12 damage is equal to 10 spell crit.
Take those values and put them into the dps spreadsheet and you will find 12 spell damage is most certianly worth a good deal more then 10 spell crit in DPS.
These values are true for all gear at the zero value.
Granted as a piece of gear gets more and more of one stat, the price of adding more of that one stat increases, and such adding a second stat becomes more valuable.

For example, brute-cloak of the ogri magi 21 spell crit/28 spell damage. Royal cloak of the sunstriders. 44 spell damage. Similar int values. There is an inherent item level differance.
But this is the example. The 13 level higher royal cloak has 16 more damage vs the 21 spell crit of the brute-cloak. Despite the level differance, and the fact spell damage is inherently cheaper per dps gain, the cost of increasing the spell damage scaled up to a point where, it is questionable to which is actually better for you. In fact, the brute-cloak is likely better for most individuals with high spell damage.

 

Boevis

I'm curious if anyone has experience with the Arena gear for Moonkin Raiding, I know it's not likely to be as good as Spellstrike/Spellfire/Windhawk, but I'm curious how it ranks up compared to t4/5

 

◊ Lorewanderer

It actually compares quite favorably. Most of my weightings put it between t4 and t5 if you can assume a shadow priest, closer to t5 when you don't have one. The notable exception to that is the shoulders which come in below t4 for both situations.

The season 2 chest beats out Windhawk handily, and as has been mentioned, the Veteran's belt/boots/wrists are actually very good.

The big thing going for it is that it has boatloads of armor and stamina, and enough resilience to make you uncrittable--you won't want to be tanking things if you have a choice, but you'll be vastly more durable than a healer and last a hit or two grabbing it off of them while a tank picks it up. Moonfire, IS, barkskin and perhaps a wrath or two and you may still even be alive after the tank notices.

As much as I see warlocks and mages being splattered, it certainly isn't a bad idea in my mind to have a chance to actually survive a hit or two.

 

Caliane

The completel lack of spell hit or crit makes it fall quite far behind t5 level. both seasons.

Season 1 gear was just below t4, while s2 is about equal.

The silk items, belt, bracers, boots are pretty decent for quite some time, though pve alternatives are better. They very much can hold you over.
I still use marshels silk bracers from season 1 for my pve bracers, as mindstorm and devestation have been fairly rare.



The pvp gear does make a fantastic alternative on high stam fights. Having 9k+ for kazzak/doomwalker at lower levels, or prenerf gruul. or having 10k+ to be absolutely sure a rage icebolt wont kill you, nor 2k spine+8.5k bubble from naj.

 

Baldmuffin

Here are the DPSF (average damage per starfire) I got for the T4/5 vs the Arena gear
Chest
T4 1345.7
T5 1356.5
Gladiator's 1319.5
Merciless 1322.8

So just looking at average damage level the T4/5 is better. Note the numbers above do not take time to OOM into account. Like the post above pointed out the AG stuff has 0 spirit so just makes the time to OOM even worse.

The other set pieces are in the same boat if you ignore the time to OOM they still put out less DPS for the same item in T4/5 more details here
Google Docs - moonkin_gear

The Moonkin_DPS_-_vX.XXX.xls is the bomb for calculating out your cast cycle for maxing out your DPS and time to OOM. Thanks much Efejel for the great spreadsheet. (saved me a ton of time )

Later,
Baldy

P.S. for boot enchants can you add the +5 spirit to the list?

 

Baldmuffin

On v0.71b

Character Sheet & Buffs page.

under Projected Total Damage you have different formulas in some of the cells. K31,32 looks like you take the T6 2pcs bonus into account where the other ones you do not.


Also a general question what do you base your average DPS on? Is that just raw dps over time or do you somehow take time till OOM into account?

Reason I ask is I was looking at my current gear swapping out the T4 helm for spell strike hood. When I calculated it out the spellstrike should have been better but using your spread sheet its actually worse. Just trying to figure out where I screwed up my calculations in ranking the gear.

Thanks,
Baldy

 

Efejel

Average DPS is total damage / projected fight length. So, going OOM sooner decreases total damage and average DPS. A good work-around is to set the fight to 1 min or under to get mana-independent estimates.

I only take the 2-pc. T6 bonus into account on those couple of cells because those are the rotations which differ most significantly. The only other rotations with Moonfire (Mf,Wx8 & Mf,IS,Wx7) aren't typical raid rotations, especially for someone in T6 (since 4-pc. T5 bonus > until chest+3 or more other T6 for 4or5/5 T6, then still practically a toss-up). I strongly recommend you take your average starfire casting time vs. moonfire duration into account when setting up your custom cycle, though. The closer you get to an exact even rotation (for instance, Sfx6,Mfx1 vs. Sfx11,Mfx2 vs. Sfx110,Mfx19) the more DPS you'll see. Of course, in real life things will likely never work out so perfectly.

And thanks for the numbers on T4/T5 vs. S1/S2. I love the pitiful jump in the season 2 gear's DPS. At least it has more mp5, praise be to Elune. Otherwise Druids wouldn't scale as well to PvP as other classes. . .

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Fishboy1111

I have a quick question for you guys. I raid as a moonkin and have always thought that crit > hit even in a raid situation and as I was reading this thread I have seen it said many times that hit is the best dps stat until you get hit capped at 16% or whatever it is. I would agree with this be it not for the Vengeance and Nature's Grace talents. Here is my logic:

If you shoot 2 SF, lets say 1000 dmg each, and one crits and the next one is resisted you have done 2000 dmg in 5.5 secs; now if you do the same thing and shoot 2 SF and both just hit then you have done 2000 dmg in 6 secs which is less dps than the previous example.

I have read elsewhere that '"crits" can be resisted but I am pretty sure that has been refuted with the whole attack table thing so that a percentage of your CASTS crit not a percentage of your HITS. Can someone please explain to me where I am off here if indeed I am?

 

Efejel

1) DPM vs DPS. Hit increases both, while the cast-time reduction with crits increases mana consumption in a fixed time period.
2) Itemization cost. Hit rating is substantially more effective/cheaper than crit rating.
3) Burst threat. Hit rating essentially works to normalize your threat generation, whereas crit rating works to ... un-normalize it. (Sorry, it's 2 AM local and I just got off an 8 hr work shift).

Remember, also, that apart from gems and, to a lesser extent, enchants (+20 dmg for gloves is still >> +15 hit), you're being forced to choose between a limited number of Moonkin-compatible items, and that there's no such thing as "all other things being equal".

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Caliane

Efejal.
I dont want to search this thread for the anwswer, so ill just ask and hope for an easier answer.

The 3% crit damage meta. Was this modeled with the bugged 9% to crit damage, or the expected 3%, that would be expected if you didnt know it was bugged, and the 3% that it will be in the upcoming patch?

 

Menagerie

You do have to keep in mind that you're not constantly going to be critting, and there is going to be complete resists if you don't reach the hit cap. Also if you are at hit cap and crit, it will not be partially resisted therefore resulting in more damage over a minute.

 

Dexter

I thought +hit only affected the number of full resists (ergo misses) you'll receive over the course of a fight. I didn't think it had any bearing whatsoever on partial resists. In my own experiences (limited, still working on Mag due to guild size and schedules), I've noticed that my 'misses' have generally fallen in line with where they should be given my +hit (give or take the normal good night/bad nights), but as my +hit has climbed, my partials have not fallen in line with my full resists, i.e. I still see a good number of partials, especially when our CoS 'lock either dies and fails to say anything over vent to have another 'lock take his place, or our CoS 'lock just fails and doesn't keep it at 100% uptime.

 

Benita

You are right about the partial resists. On non-binary spells first the hit/miss is done, then crit gets checked and finally partial resists calculated.
Spell penetration would be the right stat to lower the partial resists, but as bosses usually have not more resistance than Curse of Shadows removes, it brings 0 damage increase to the table, unless CoS is lacking. For Wrath it might be worthwhile. The 2nd part is that all mobs higher than 70 have resistance that cannot be lowered, which creates the partial resists no matter what you do. Im guessing thats the spellcasters version of glancing strikes.

As for the "hit is better than crit" you have to take that with a grain of salt. 1% crit might be close to 1% hit, but thats not how it works.

First of all first the hit gets calculated then the crit, meaning if you stay at a theoretical 83% hit chance you will only get 83% of your 30% crit chance. Its not working like melee attacks hittables in this specific point.

Secondly each % of hit needs 12.6 rating on level 70, crit needs 22.1 and spellhaste soon 15ish. The item budget i think is getting calculated as 1 rating=1 spelldamage. The kind of rating doesnt even matter. That means you get more hit % out of the item budgets. This can be vaguely seen if you compare the Ruby Drape of the Mysticant to the Brute Cloak of the Ogre-Magi.

And last but not least, hit is having full effect on all kinds of spell. Crit is not helping you on 2/3 of the Moonfire damage, Insect Swarm or reapplying Faerie Fire.

Overall i would suggest to just go for highest possible stats all the way. You can always balance lack of hit with gems. Veiled Noble Topaz>Runed Living Ruby>Potent Noble Topaz as long as you lack hit. If you reached 151 rating the Veiled Noble Topaz is worse than the Glowing Nightseye.
As for how much better the Runed Living Ruby is over the Potent Noble Topaz, that depends on alot of factors. The more Starfire you use and the higher your spelldamage gets the better crit becomes. The more spellhaste you use, the worse it becomes. Metagem is a factor and also the socket bonus you might get with a yellow gem.

I found the gem choices to be much harder than the gear choices as those are pretty straight forward after you got access to SSC/TK. Im looking forward to seeing more choices from badge items or ZA gear, but im guessing i wont have much benefit of it personally.

 

Efejel

It's modeled to mimic the in-game performance, which is 9% with 5/5 Veng.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Benita

Does that mean i have to switch to the awesome Swift Starfire Diamond again in 2.2?

 

Caliane

Bummer.


This really complicates the value of haste effects then. Theoretcially, the mystical skyfire is then top dps.

However, there is a very real issue with working dps rotations of moonfire and IS and timing them with your starfires.

Is mf sfx3 is a perfect 12s cycle in theory. But when you have nat grace reducing cast time by .5, 50% faster cast meta, spell haste giving you 2.8 or 2.95 starfires, things get harder to calc.

One of the advantages of the mf, sfx4 rotation I preach for end game. (Other then the arcane, and crit scaling superiour to IS), is that it has 1.5s of dot "dead" time. The mf drops for 1.5s. that 1.5 then can be made up for by spellhaste, nat grace, or the meta. Although if you use the meta, a single proc would get you to the 12s timer on mf, and any additional haste effects would place you at starting a 5th starfire in the rotation, resulting in reapplying MF later.

 

Sedation

I couldnt find anywhere in the Pvp forums that could answer this question. I cant decide which pvp set pieces to get for pvp specifically (wyrmhide, dreadweave, or silk). I have separate pieces for PVE (mindstorm wristband, belt of blasting, and Ruby slippers, hopefully upgrading to the leather dps boots soon). I know sta/res > for pvp. i didnt know where armor or mp5, or even crit comes into play. Ive also been told that dmg > crit for balance druids. i just dont know where this all plays in for pvp or pve.

Im currently sitting at:
1092 dmg
161 hit
22.03% crit

I dont know if i should sub out some dmg for crit? I know i could drop about 9 hit for some crit.

 

Caliane

You cant go wrong with the areana gear or wyrmhide.

If you wanted to get the cloth nonset, silk would be the better choice likely.
I would still take wyrmhide personally however. The armor on those peices is pretty high as well.

 

Disbeliever

no i am not fudging my dmg...

crit is just better in many ways. especially becuase of the -0.5 sec casting time.
The 100% extra dmg on crits...
if you max out hit and then build on crit you get more dmg then if you max out hit and building on +dmg.... I have done it on dr Boom in netherstorm and crit beats dmg.

 

Dexter

I know this isn't exactly the proper thread, but figured this would be a good place to turn to. Can someone take a look at my armory and the WWS I'll link and give me some feedback, please? I just don't seem to be doing as much DPS as I think I should be. Any tips/advice on things to change would be great.

My normal rotation is IS, SFx4, but I've been toying around with IS, MF, SFx3. I apply IFF when it's up, and drop treants when I can. Our CoS lock has 3/3 Malediction and is pretty good about maintaining 100% uptime. Usually I don't have to worry about a brez, but occasionally I do have to use it, and unfortunately I don't get our SPriest when he's in the raid. Consumable use is Adept's, Draenic Wisdom, Basilisk food, and Wizard Oil (either Brilliant or Superior).

Our guild has Gruul on farm and are working on Mag and Lurker, but due to schedules we don't get too many attempts per week. I still run Kara weekly for a few pieces I would still like to get, such as the dagger and cloak from Prince, the boots from Maiden, and the gloves from Attumen.

Armory link

WWS parse - Gruul's Lair

Thanks in advance!!

 

Nerfy

your not listed on that WWS unless your linking someone else's armory or something.

 

Dexter

Since it's an anonymous listing, I'm on there as "Cumulus", the only balance druid in the listing.