Hey all,

Currently, I stand at 1306 - 1328 +spell damage, 148 - 175 spell haste (9-11%), and ~24.6% (counting Moonkin aura) spell crit. Using the Moonkin DPS spreadsheet, my optimal rotation is MFx2, SFx15.

My question is, what exactly does that mean? I'm under the obvious assume that I should cast two "spell cycles": One consisting of MF, SFx8 and a second consisting of MF, SFx7. Is there any specific order these should be in? Does how I go about determining what spell to cast next depend on the amount of times Nature's Grace procs, or on the duration left on Moonfire? From a mathematical standpoint, such a cycle would entail casting one or two Starfires before refreshing Moonfire after it has expired on the target. Is there a specific, maximum amount of time I should limit myself to not having a Moonfire on the target (because recently I've been refreshing it as soon as possible whenever it has run out -- never clipping it, but merely refreshing it)?

It's my own fault for not explicitly counting out the rotation before (the one I was using was less than optimal, more of a MFx2, SFx12, since I was refreshing MF asap), but I'd appreciate help in figuring exactly what this listed spell rotation entails, and what variables might cause it to deviate from its normal self...if ever.

Thanks in advance, and sorry to bother.

Read the FAQ... on page ONE of this thread.

I've read the FAQ, and I understand that the rotation listed: MFx2, SFx15, is based on averages.

My question is a bit more complicated than that: Let's say, for instance, I don't get any crits in the first 6 Starfires after a Moonfire cast. Would it be better at that point to refresh Moonfire, since after 6 Starfires, it has expired (and thus not have a MFx2, SFx15 cycle), or cast another Starfire and then cast another Moonfire, followed by 8 Starfires (in order to keep the total Starfires cast per 2 Moonfires equal to 15)?

Perhaps I should phrase it a bit differently. I've noticed that the general consensus is that, unless you have a ridiculous amount of +Spell Damage, Starfire spam will not out-DPS a MF, SF rotation. But as you increase in haste, spell damage and the like, is there a point where Moonfire is simply needed to be cast less, a point at which refreshing Moonfire as soon as possible after it has expired on the target would actually be a loss in DPS rather than a gain or sustainment?

If that IS the case, that refreshing Moonfire immediately would actually be a slight DPS cut, then a MFx2, SFx15 rotation would make sense: I could easily just ensure that I cast the number of Starfires per Moonfire rather than making my focus renewing Moonfire immediately as it leaves the target (never interrupting a Starfire to do so, of course, but simply making it top priority after my current spell finishes casting).

Either the 1.x seconds spent on casting the MF is higher dps than the 2.x seconds on SF (depending on haste) or its not. If its not, you would never cast SF. How long you can delay your SF to either refresh right after the last MF tic or even cut the last dot tic, depends how much higher your MF dps is than the SF and largely is based on gear.
2T6 favours MF, with 4t5 it might be better to clip a last dot tic or cast IS instead, 4t6 favours the SF spam and i got no clue where 4t5+2t6 or 4t5+4t6 ends up.
One more thing to keep in mind is your crit rate and the likeliness of wasting a NG proc, meaning the last SF you cast is a crit and the MF crits aswell, just overwriting the proc without using it.

It is all theorycraftable but depends on you gearlevel.

I had 4t6 very early on and never got full t5, so i tried it out for that specific case and my experience was that its better to not clip your MF and also not delay your SF (which conveniently was also the least "involved" rotation).

I've been experimenting and I'm not sure if I'm sold on the whole 4t5 + 4t6 bonus. I was really excited to try it out, and granted I've only had both set bonuses for about 30 minutes now, but the damage is extremely spikey.

Crits range from 6k (if moonfire falls off) to 7.5k (with moonfire on the mob) to 8K+ (with hex shrunken head popped).

I definitely need some testing on a sit and nuke type of fight, like brutallus, or teron, but for the time being... I don't see how it's possible for 4T5 + 4T6 to be better than T6 + haste.

Anyway, back to twinz, will update later!

Can anyone direct me to the 'new gospel' of the supremacy of Sunwell 4pc + T6? I have searched and perhaps I have become blinded by the mass of posts in this thread but I cannot find it.

For my part I have been trying to put together my end-set for the continuation of my raiding. I have access to all loot up to Twins (and M'uru soon), but try as I might, running numbers between Efejel's spreadsheet and Dr.Boom between T5/T6 and T6/Sunwell have all yielded (for me), completely equivalent numbers (dps outputs within 30dps, which given my performance vs calced performance is a statistically deadheat to me.

For reference, the sets I've been running have been:

Set 1 T5/T6 option 1
Nordrassil Headpiece (Chaotic SD, Reckless Pyrestone, Glyph of Power)
Nordrassil Wrath-Mantle (Reckless Pyrestone, Glowing Shadowsong, Greater Inscription of the Orb)
Nordrassil Chestpiece (Runed Spinel x3, +6 Stats)
Thunderheart Bands (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Handguards (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Cord (Reckless Pyrestone)
Nordrassil Wrath-kilt (Glowing Shadowsong, Runic Spellthread)
Thunderheart Footwraps (Reckless Pyrestone, Boar's Speed)
Brute Cloak of the Ogre-magi (Subtlety)
Pendant of Sunfire (Reckless Pyrestone)
Loop of Forged Power (Spellpower)
Ring of Ancient Knowledge (Spellpower)
Hex Shrunken Head
Skull of Gul'dan
Reign of Misery (Sunfire)
Heart of the Pit

Set 2 T6/Sunwell Option2
Cover of Ursoc the Mighty (Chaotic SD, Reckless Pyrestone, Glyph of Power)
Spaulders of Devastation (Reckless Pyrestone, Glowing Shadowsong, Greater Inscription of the Orb)
Utopian Tunic of Elune (Reckless Pyrestone x3, +6 Stats)
Thunderheart Bands (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Handguards (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Cord (Reckless Pyrestone)
Breeches of Natural Aggression (Glowing Shadowsong, Reckless Pyrestone x2, Runic Spellthread)
Thunderheart Footwraps (Reckless Pyrestone, Boar's Speed)
Brute Cloak of the Ogre-magi (Subtlety)
Pendant of Sunfire (Reckless Pyrestone)
Loop of Forged Power (Spellpower)
Ring of Ancient Knowledge (Spellpower)
Hex Shrunken Head
Skull of Gul'dan
Reign of Misery (Sunfire)
Chronicle of Dark Secrets

These items sets in Efejels' spreadsheets yield buffed stats of:*
*assumed raid buffs of 2/2 Fort, AB, 2/2 DS, 5/5 MotW, 2/2 Wis, Kings, Wrath, 101 WoA, 0/5 Mana Spring, 1% draenei hit, CoS13, Misery 5, Blinding Light Flask, Basilisk Food, Superior Wizard Oil, Starfire Idol, 0.2 latency.

Set 1
Stam: 696
Int: 609
Spirit: 375
Crit: 28.25%
Hit: 18.08%
Arcane: 1657
Nature: 1607
Mp5: 332
Haste: 244

Efejel SS DPS: 1945 dps, (MF, SFx6)

Set 2
Stam: 727
Int: 632
Spirit: 371
Crit: 30.40%
Hit: 15.93%
Arcane: 1725
Nature: 1675
Mp5: 329
Haste: 300

Efejel SS DPS: 1919 dps, (starfire only.)

I ran the numbers with Dr. Boom and got roughly the same dmg difference ~roughly 25 dps difference between, sometimes T5/6 > Sunwell and sometimes the other way around, and with different weapon setups, which under IRL situations is basically statistically null as far as I'm concerned because I'm not a machine and generally get lower output than the calc predicts anyways. Now, maybe I'm just blind or input it in wrong, but I just don't see the gospel as truth yet. And I'm also posed with the dilemma of gear, since the way the sheets have been coming out is basically nudging me towards just keeping T5/6 and just get a weapon upgrade and collect the sunwell offset for resto, instead of wasting a considerable amount of guild sunmotes towards a nominally insignificant gain in dps.

Was there a specific gearset people are using to demonstrate T6/Sunwell's superiority?

I don't think the spreadsheet is the best place to see the disparity, as the calculations assume you're always keeping one DOT on the boss for T5 benefit. In reality, 1/6 Starfires will likely miss the 10% buff, lowering your over all DPS by ~1.5% (or ~29 DPS).

I dunno how the Dr. Boom simulator handles T5 4-pc (or if it does), but it might be a better place to test--plug in the raw stats you get from the spreadhsheet to the sim & see what pops out.

In the end, if you have access to all the gear options you're better off just relying on what you see in game. If the practical tests don't always favor one option, take the option with more stam.

PS: Brute Cloak of the Ogre-magi!?!?

Also, have you tried the Ashtongue Talisman in place of the Hex-shrunken? With 300 haste (in the T6+sunwell set) and high starfire crit rate, I could see it playing nicely.

Yukikaze: One thing you might want to compare is the 4pT5 + 4pT6 vs. our actual best in slot in sunwell. The best pieces are clearly the Leggings of Calamity , Robes of Ghostly Hatred over the leather equivalents (If only we could wear mail too!). Not just for base stats, but the socket colors are amazing as well. Having the Skull also makes it a lot easier for you to max your hit without gemming for it in the offset pieces ( I personally may have to make a push for the Season 4 weapon as opposed to RoM if I want to be geared properly). EDIT: The ZA cloak or the Shroud of the Highbourne are both better than the ogre-magi one as well.

I'd also run 15 spirit on your chest, especially considering your raid has IDS, you see the same damage but a bit more mana out of it. Another question: what about drums/blood lusts? Do you get switched out for lusts or no drums in your group? EDIT: Are you positive you get COS: 13%? Your raid brings an affliction lock? I imagine if it was your fourth or fifth lock, and you carried 2 or 3 spriests at all times, it'd be huge. Just not a common spec at that level of raiding.


Really I can't see the double four piece being worth it, if only due to timing. You clearly aren't going to interrupt a starfire to reapply a moonfire, and IS is such a huge DPS drop as to not be worth it barring necessity for tank avoidance. An additional benefit of the offset pieces is the larger amount of haste will lower the DPS hit from applying IFF (thought not everyone runs this rotation), something no other stat actually affects.

I do agree on one thing: Comparing it to gear that you get from M'uru and KJ is probably a bit silly, as what we're really looking for is the best dps to get those bosses down, not what we can do afterwards.

Thanks for the gear suggestions, I'll plug them in and check it out.

I left out heroism/drums because it depends on how many shamans we have that night whether we have 1, 2, or even 3 heroisms, same with drums depending on LWs in the group. Don't always get 13 CoS though.

The thing about the moonfire timing, currently with double 4pc I'm rolling in 182 haste already, and my last starfire usually hits right about when my moonfire tick ends, sometimes right before and sometimes right after, but the amount of overlap (currently) is minimal at best. I imagine higher haste will exacerbate this, but I'd have to check it out in the field.

<Might> does bring me for IFF, so right now my rotations are usually IFF (MF, SFx5/6)x2, but I do use IS on brutallus, offset a bit by massive stacking of lw/heroisms/destro pots.

Seems like you get a shadow priest as well, so being able to use destro pots is a major advantage. No having to farm demonic runes for you

I really like the interaction of haste with IFF, and even innervate. I definitely notice when the heroisms start rolling in keeping moonfire exact is nearly impossible. If you are a drummer, try and get to be the first one in the rotation. It really helps me be able to time it with my dots on our three man rotation, and not let the cooldown interfere with dot uptime. Plus at the beginning the tank can get that 1.5 second threat lead, and it has less of an impact on your initial dps.

If you had a Cowl of the Illidari High Lord drop would the switch to any T6/off pieces you might have be better than the 4 pc. T5? I'm making the assumption that you're only using the T5 helm as it's the best piece you have with a meta slot. Or do you not have 4 piece T6 at all yet without the helm? ( I can't check your armory at work).

With such a talented horde raiding scene, maybe you could get on an Archi run if they have a surplus of T6 vanq?

It's nice that you can get those pugged though; I'm in the opposite situation where 4 piece T5 is just not going to be available, and have to maximize what T6/sunwell pieces can do.