Caliane

Yes, I know. but starfire without the 4pc t5 gets 1.56spell coeff with 13% cos, misery.
we get 1.56 damage per 1 point of spell damage, they will be getting 1.78 damage per 1 point of damage.

Scorch does lower their dps, while moonfire increases ours.
But not enough.

I'd suspect buffs were greatly differant in the two models.
For 1700+dps, you probably had an elem shaman buffs, while he outright said he didnt.

 

Thermomenes

Please refer back to the original post. I did not include any shaman buffs. Neither did he. If i had included shaman buffs (using 101 from wrath of air and not the 121 via set bonus), the dps for the balance druid would be = 1821.0 dps over 5 min

Another P.S.

Is there a way to model Ferocious Inspiration in our balance druid spreadsheet, Efejel? I sometimes have 2 BM hunters in my group and that buff is up constantly...sometimes double stacking.

 

Caliane

You have the 6% resist turned off, and zero latency as stated.

The best gear in the game for a balance druid gives:
unbuffed
452 int, 293spir, 23.95 crit(char sheet), 151 hit rating, 1338 arcane/1288nature, 85 mp/5.
buffed
562int,420spi, 30.33%crit(40.3% SF/41%mf/34%W), 15.98% hit, 1552 arc/1502 nat, 185mp/5.
If you want a list I can do that.
No shaman, but all other buffs, well fed, oil, and flask of blinding light= 1785 dps with zero lat, no resist. 1533 with resist and .2s latency.


I'll check the math for the mage dps, with similar gear/buffs, and latency/resist.


Using t6 as a base, with what I think is generally the best fire mage gear. used 120 int, 100s as base, and not sure on base crit%.
1274fire, 22.3% crit charsheet, 171hit, 451int, 267s
1459fire, 23.6c (39.6% scorch/35.6% FB), 171hit, 561int, 395spi

Same buffs, and still no shaman, latency/resist.

t6 4pc mage, gives 5% to fireball/frostbolt/missles compared to our 5% crit to sf, which was counted for our crit. The druid dps use the BUGGED 9% relentless gem, this mage is using an expectd 3% crit damage, after its fixed tow ork again.
scorch- 1482 hit, 3171 crit /w ignite. Averaging 2149 damage.
FB- 4046hit(/w 4pt6), 8658 crit/w ignite. Averaging 5688.7damage.
sc x1, fbx9 over 28.5s =53347d or 1872dps.

 

Efejel

Be wary of different methodologies between spreadsheets, or since the quoted portion of Vontre's post is slightly cryptic, perhaps we may even be talking the difference between a monte carlo simulation and a spreadsheet. I've seen it mentioned in this thread, and far more critically on the official EU Druid forums that some folks are finding this sheet overestimates, and it's been suggested that the gap widens as gear improves. This isn't too surprising--it's a rare fight where you aren't interrupted some of the time, don't spend a portion of the fight moving, and/or get exactly the expected distribution of crits, hits, and partial resists. But there's no sense putting in "fudge factors" in the spreadsheet--or at least my training as a scientist keeps the part of me that wants to match in-game performance from doing so .

I could try and account for Ferocious Inspiration in much the same way I account for Stormstrike, by asking the user to estimate the %-age uptime throughout the course of the fight. I suppose with some effort I could query about the number & crit-rate of the pets capable of causing the buff, but this would be significantly more work, so let me know if estimating the uptime isn't do-able and I'll try to wrap my head around it. (As always, feel free to give it a shot on your own. I'm happy to merge any contributions and give full credit to the appropriate parties.)

As for the other "Drum" buffs, I'll look into adding them. And that potion you mentioned. I'm not familiar with them off-hand, so I can't give you too much hope yet, and have to say that what I remember of the Destruction Potion is that it is going to work alot like activated trinkets, and in the end may prove to be more pain than I'm willing to tackle.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Thermomenes

Thanks for the comparison Caliane! I am working on my own for fun too cuz i like that kinda stuff.

If your comparison is dead on, I think most any balance druid would be Ok with that assessment. a 72pt dps different under those circumstances with our "parent class" would keep it close in any fight and give the chance for skill to outweigh sheer dpsing power. Movement fights would probably bring the two toe to toe and latency differences between the mage and the druid would also produce variable results at a mere 72dps difference in a real situation.

I would also willingly post my spreadsheets. i guess i could use something like fileshare to link them.

EDIT:

Ok, here are the spreadsheets after a little more tweaking!
In sum, the moonkin can do 97% of a fire mage's best dps without Molten Fury.
With Molten Fury calculated as below, the moonkin can do 93.31% of the fire mage's best dps.

With Molten Fury on it is difficult to get a true dps reading. However, I attempted a guess by taking the mage normal dps(Ndps) * .2. Then for a 5 min fight, I took 5*.2=1min of Molten Fury assuming no special boss mechanics and raid wide consistent dps throughout a 5 min period. Take the ((Ndps)*(4)+(Ndps)*(.2))/5= Average mage dps with molten fury. In this case, the original Ndps is 1971. The Molten Fury dps added to the Ndps is 2049.84.

Compare:

Moonkin- 1912.8 (97%)
Mage w/o MF- 1971 (100%)
Mage w/ MF- 2049.84 (104%)

There are several things I should explain about the spreadsheets. I didnt use helms with meta sockets because I had trouble getting correct values for their dps benefits. Instead I just used the best regular gem helm for both. Also, the mage values do include 2.3 coefficient changes. Both spreadsheets do not include 2.2 haste values because I don't know how to update the moonkin one. Latency and pushback are set to 0 but resistence is not.

Moonkin:
http://www.freewebs.com/shadeofarrow...oonkin_dps.xls

Mage:
http://www.freewebs.com/shadeofarrow...s/mage_dps.xls

NOTE: I want to add that I think moonkin could squeeze a little more dps out of the gear in this spreadsheet. While switching gems that should have increased dps on a few items I ended up decreasing dps sometimes by 30 pts. So, we moonkins probably can squeeze the margin tighter than what i have posted. At most, I would guess, 2%.

Also, on the mage sheet, it gives 2 different dps values in the "main sheet" tab. I assume the max dps under "spells" is for fireball spam and no scorch and the max dps under "build comparison" is for the best fire cast cycle...but I am not certain. The tab for "cycle builder" also shows a lower different dps than the "build comparison" for fire and I don't know why. What I do know is that the mage sheet tells me the max mage dps lies somewhere between 1884.4 and 2049.84.

 

Thermomenes

Thanks Efejel!

Ya, estimating the Ferocious Inspiration like Stormstrike is a doable scenario for any druid that runs with a hunter. But it would just account for 1 FI up and might not work right to factor in 2 FI or more since overlap is much harder to account for. Overlap would be another %age inside a %age. For all intents and purposes just estimating 1 FI would be fine. Granted the situation is unusual, but still worth a look. I am not trained in Excel beyond the most basic entry of data so I can't make any contributions to the sheet. I would if i could tho.

Drum buffs are definately worth a look imo. When a well geared moonkin has a well geared S-priest in group, the leatherworking moonkin will be able to forego resto drums and pop either the 23 spell damage drums of war or the 3.8% haste increase drums of battle for more dps. In a 10 min fight, the dps drums could be up for 25% of the time.

As for the destruction potions...I guess it might be a bad idea to make the effort to put it in the spreadsheet. The pot increases spell damage by 120 and adds 2% crit for 15 sec every 2 min and shares a CD with super mana pots. Even with an S-priest in group, it's hard to imagine a fight that you could pop destruction pots every 2 min and give up your super manas. Plus these pots would only be up for 45 seconds of a 10 min fight. Basically its equvalent to a 1 time use epic trinket. Might be fun to model it tho...your call. I could model it myself for a 10 min fight if I just take a normal spreadsheet, make the fight 45 sec, add 120 damage and 2% more crit to my buffed character stats, subtract "potted" damage from the usual damage in 45 sec, and add that to the total damage of a 10 min fight.

EDIT: I just tested destro pots in a 10 min fight and the added the additional damage to that 10 min fight. Result is: 5611 extra damage with best gear on and fully buffed/potted, shaman (121), latency and resist set to 0.

If you are going to get at MOST a 5600ish return over a 10 min fight, I personally wouldnt waste the mats and money to start popping 5 destro pots a fight.

 

Thermomenes

Another question for Efejel:

Where do I update the spell haste formula on the spreadsheet?

 

f1reburn

New Moonkin here, raided most of SSC and TK as an Elemental Shaman, but rerolled Druid.

Some questions:
-Considering the +1/3rd healing translates into spelldamage change, is the Windhawk set worth getting over Spellfire now? It's probably a big increase in sustainability, but the Spellfire 3-piece bonus is very nice.
-How do Moonkins, in your experience, scale with gear compared to Elemental Shamans? According to the Simulationcraft Wiki Druids scale slightly better? For example: I was doing about 1-1.1k dps buffed as a Shaman using a mixture of tier 4 and 5 level gear. Can I expect similar numbers as a Moonkin?
-The spreadsheet showed that switching from [Arcane Khorium Band] to [Band of Dominion] decreased my dps, which struck me as odd.

 

Efejel

It's referenced in several cells. Essentially all cells in column V-Z in rows 4&5 on the Damage Calcs sheet is where changes need to be made. I was trying to put out an update with this fix tonight, but things went horribly awry. All my pulldown boxes on the Character Sheet & Buffs page broke and I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to fix them without re-implementing a couple hours worth of changes.

Try a shorter fight duration/more shadow priest mana and see if you get the same result.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Caliane

Thermomenes,
Ill see if I can review your spreadsheets later. But, right now, I dont see how 1900dps is even possible for a balance druid even with every buff in the game, and zero resist/latency.
I listed a bugged druid doing 1785dps in the best gear in the game for a balance druid, with no latency/resist and no mana concerns. A shaman would add about 100 dps.
And you were even stating 1900+ dps with resists.


In my comparison, there were a few mistakes that should have made the gap even larger.
As I noted. relentless meta gem being 9% for the druid, while 3% for the mage. Mage was not given the best of the best gear. Gear imbalance issue though, not really class mechanics. The mage did have archimonde sword, but not hellfire encased pendant. And I underestimated mage base crit %. The mage had 367 crit rating, but I listed his crit % as like 23% base, which is understated im pretty sure.
as well as the possible group buff moonkin aura itself which was given to the druid but not mage.


I'd expect at 200-300dps differance between druid-mage at endgame level now. I can accept being 200-300 dps behind a rogue. But not a mage, they have way too much utility/group use. If a balance druids single purpose is single target dps, and it is. And they cant be competative at that, theres a problem. Becuase 5% crit does not make up 300dps differance.



Destruction pots. If your not using your potion timer for anything else and you need more damage. Why not?
They are certainly not comparable to haste pots, but they are better then nothing.
2% crit on them is rediculous. Crit on the melee ones would be reasonable. A rogue hits 17-20 times in 15s. I cast 7 times. The chances of actually having that crit cuase a crit in 7 casts is absurd.
The damage however is useful.
Most notable use of them.
Heroism, power infusion, any haste proc item.
Dont try to stack them with icon of the silver cresent for crazy high crits. that has no point.
Do it with haste in efforts to get as many casts in as possible.

Terongorefiend for example, I do.

Is, force of nature, mf on run in.
Heroism. Icon. Destro pot when icon wears off.
desto pot+force of nature next time up.

 

Caliane

1. I would say very much yes. Windhawk>spellfire 2.3

2. I hear mixed results on this. I have yet to really do a direct comparison. Logic tells me the balance druid should do much better. But I have heard way more elem shaman claiming 1k dps in t4 gear then I have heard balance druids claiming 1k dps in t5.

Most shaman state that druids have been mana regen. This isnt really true. Its actually very close with differant advantages either way.
mana spring is 38mp5 iirc. Doesnt scale. Innervate is about 40mp/5 over its cd for most druids. Does scale with spirit. Intensity is about 48 mp/5 for druids, scales with spirit. Elemental focus is 60% off next spell after criting. This is about 47mp/5 iirc, for most shaman at about 40% crit. Scales with crit. (Mind you these numbers are off the top of my head from math done months ago..)
The crit means shaman scale in damage and regen with one stat. This is also far better in pvp, and allows for much higher crit%
Druids need to invest in spirit however. Potentially alot of itemvalue spent on pure regen.
Spirit does scale with kings better then crit rating for shaman, as well as gets improved divine spirit, AND should any fight have down time, the druids regen out of the 5s rule is vastly superiour.


Curse of shadows does the same for balance druids to shaman as it does to starfire and wrath. The druid simply gets a 10-13% buff that shaman dont. That is pretty huge.

Totems are superiour buffs. But are limited by range, and cost cooldowns on recast.

Shaman are also getting a dps nerf in 2.3.

 

Efejel

Beta testing needed!

0.72 beta is attached to this post! (Also up at FileFront: Moonkin_DPS_-_v0.72beta.xls - FileFront.com ).

I inadvertently started from an 0.71 beta, instead of the latest release (0.71b) so some of the old formatting bugs might have crept their way into this one. So, I'd be especially grateful if folks who are using something other than Excel 2003 could check it out.

I'm also trying out the notion of protecting the cells in which do most of the calculations on the main sheets. Unfortunately, it protects the whole sheet in OpenOffice.org scalc, so I'm probably going to abandon the notion. Feel free to weigh in on it, though.

Attached Files

Moonkin DPS - v0.72beta.xls (426.0 KB, 42 views)

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Thermomenes

Thanks for the update and thanks for including drums and FI!

First off the bat i notice a few bugs.

1) I am getting more mana in the new version without the new intensity changes activated. Demonic Rune delay is set to 0 instead of 2 and I am getting 8222 mana from innervate instead of 8200 in the previous version.

2) Drums of War and Battle boxes are greyed out.

3) Darkmoon Card: Crusade is locked so I cannot manually input its 80 bonus damage.

 

Efejel

1) I'll look into it--def related to the intensity tweak, should be fixable
2) Not yet implemented, I added only placeholders
3) Ok, next version will only have the front-page protected, just unlock the sheet. Sorry about that.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Celdhyrean

In cloaks : Ruby Dr.ape of the Mysticant
Last sheet : Innervate comment (L10) unreadable : i just have a small 1mm large column appearing (using Excel 2003). Same for M4 although slightly larger (3 mm, I can read "H o w l")

I can't compare calculation results since i've haven't been using previous versions at the moment for that. (i was more looking at gear selection rather than optimisation of current gear)
Thanks for all the work however

 

Efejel

I may have spoke too soon...


Ah, yes. Sorry, that's a hold-over from posting my gear list on the off'cl forums. Remember kids, you can't Drape the willing. And the comments are a pain the butt--they seem to display to the right of cells no matter where I drag them to.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Thermomenes

Quagmirran's Eye

I am trying to find the best way to calculate the benefit of this trinket into terms of +spell damage so I can better judge upgrades.

Any ideas?

 

Thermomenes

Oh, Efejel...

I just downloaded the Rogue Spreadsheet for my rogue alt and there is this really really useful option on the spreadsheet to optimize gear.

Location
5 Man TRUE
BoE TRUE
Quest TRUE
Crafted TRUE
Reputation TRUE
PvP TRUE
Heroics TRUE
Karazhan FALSE
Gruul's Lair FALSE
Magtheridon FALSE
SSC FALSE
TK FALSE
Doomwalker FALSE
Kazzak FALSE
Hyjal FALSE
Black Temple FALSE
Pre-BC Raiding FALSE
Endgame Crafted FALSE

So you can choose where your gear would be coming from and the gear selection list would add or remove items accordingly for each gear slot.

I think that would be a fantastic addition to the spreadsheet. I appreciate everything you have done for balance druids.

 

Efejel

While that sounds really cool, I can only see accomplishing that by adding 18 boolean flags to every item in the spreadsheet. Even then, I think it may be a little beyond my Excel expertise to get it working, though I could almost certainly reverse engineer it off the rogue sheet. Real life is just too busy for me currently to tackle this, especially since I'm trying to squeeze in some time to play the game after a 5 month hiatus. In any event, I don't think there's sooooo much Balance loot in the game that people are spending a great deal of time searching through an alphabetized list of ~40 items to find the one they want.

As for Quag's Eye... it's good. Pretty damn good in starfire-centric environment. I'd say Darkmoon: Crusade (for a fairly stationary fight) > Eye of Mag > Icon of the SC > Quag's Eye ~= Scryer's Bloodgem (depending on how far from the hit cap you are), but that's just an intuitive ranking based on how far I had progressed raid-wise as of this past May. I also have no idea what the current damage values/crit rate/hit rate for Lightning Capacitor and/or what the hidden cooldowns are for the proc crit trinkets (Sextant & Shiffar's).

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Vyniris

In the latest beta spreadsheet, I'm getting an Err:503 all over the place if I try to input a IS/SFx4 rotation manually.

You included them on your own, but I've also gotten different numbers from your own rotations, and the one I input manually. For example, I input IS/MF/SFx3, and get 641.2 dps with different things selected - then I look up a couple spots and your own IS/MF/SFx3 (same exact rotation and gear) gives me 660.9 dps. I didn't see anything about this in the thread (might've missed it), so I thought I'd mention it.


I'm using OpenOffice.

 

Caliane

Oh, if you didnt read it Efejel.

In 2.3 all +healing stat allolated items will provide 33% of the pure +healing stat as +damage as well.

Which of course makes adding items to the sheet pretty complex. haha.

 

Benita

Sextant has 45sec hidden cooldown, i think Shiffar is the same.

The +dmg of +healing isnt really worth the effort of checking out for dps, you wouldnt choose alot of those items for it because of the lack of other stats. There might be some exceptions like the Illidan healing cloak, which suddenly has 23 spelldmg and 32 spellhaste, but in most cases it makes only for an interesting side effect.
Basically t6 healing items have the dmg value of t4, with all the wrong gems and enchants of course.

 

Efejel

I'll probably be adding them--I'm sure there's a few Resto's out there who will be curious (and perhaps pleasantly surprised) to check out their DPS potential in their epic healing, and to compare it to all-5-man +dmg gear.

Of course, I'll wait until this stuff is finalized, and we have answers to questions like "What happens to Windhawk?" If it gets the +dmg it deserves, it might finally be worthy of having it's name in purple.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Thermomenes

T5 chest socket bonus is wrong. It should be +4 crit instead of +4 hit.

 

Vyniris

Adding onto the problems with the latest spreadsheet, the Alchemist's Stone is not improving the mana gain from potions.

Edit: Nice work on these spreadsheets, by the way. Thanks for making them!