Ok, so I am getting obsessed with trying to get a +spell damage equivalence value for Quag's Eye.
This is the math I have so far....help out!
Given values:
-600 second fight
-10% hidden proc chance
-0.6 second haste increase on proc
-6 second proc duration (2 casts)
-3 second starfire cast
-0 latency
-2800 average starfire damage including crit rate.
-37 passive spell damage on trinket
Derived:
.1 * 200 casts = 20 procs
20 procs * 2 casts = 40 casts
40 casts * .6 seconds = 24 seconds cast time reduction
24 sec / 3 sec cast time = 8 extra starfires
2800 * 8 = 22400 average extra damage off proc
22400 damage / 600 seconds cast time = 37.33 damage per second off proc
37.33 dps * 3 second cast time = 112 spell damage from proc with given gear??
112 damage from proc + 37 passive trinket damage = 149 spell damage??
Total Trinket value:
149 spell damage
49.67 dps (149/3)
I am leaving out Nature's Grace and assuming the proc does not refresh while already active.
Is my math correct?
Problem here is the unknowns. What is the value of DPS_Base?
The site has posted the following instructions on how to use the formula, but leaves out how to find the DPS_BASE value:
The following method was used to perform this evaulation:
* Determine base DPS for the class/talent profile (DPS_BASE)
* Add 100 Spell Damage to the profile and re-run simulation to determine +dmg scaling (DPS_100)
* Remove the 100 Spell Damage and re-run simulation with each trinket, set bonus, proc equipped (DPS_ITEM)
* Using these calculated values, determine the Spell Damage equivalent for the item
Last edited by Thermomenes : 10/09/07 at 12:11 AM.
I doubt it's anywhere near that good. Simply because if it were, 1) everyone would know and 2) it would be nerfed next week. I think the main factor you're disregarding is the probable internal cooldown, though I'm not fully certain this trinket has one, and surprisingly there's no info in the comments on Wowhead.
For base DPS, I'd use the results the spreadsheet gives on a starfire-only rotation.
As for the other comments: all things I should and intend to look into. Eventually. :-/
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
So with a 2.5~3 sec spell and a 10% chance to proc, and a 45 sec CD (which I wasn't looking that hard for) a rough estimate is 1 PPM, with of course a maximum of 1.25 PPM, or 8 procs in 6 min, less than half of the non-CD-predicted 20.
I think here is where your math may have broken down the most. To convert DPS -> SDE (spell damage equivalent) you need to consider how much spell damage it would take to bump starfire's damage by 23.33 DPS. I'm again feeling a bit lazy, and a bit short on time, so I'll say this: with 13% CoS a tier 5 + similar geared Druid would expect about a 46 DPS increase from the 101 +dmg from a Wrath of Air totem, just while spamming starfire. The benefit in a more realistic rotation, that includes MF and IS, would be greater (up to ~49 DPS in the semi-random scenario I have plugged in ATM).
So, a more realistic ballpark is ~70-some +dmg. So pretty good for a blue, as long as you're able to fully use the proc every time it activates--a challenge in phased fights, fights requiring movement, etc. Meaning, that like most aspects of being a Balance Druid: it's yet another situationally beneficial/superior gear/talent/consumable/etc.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
t5 pc is too low. It claims with 1200spell damage, 350crit rating, 150 hit, and a 2.7s hasted starfire, it only takes 57 +damage to matcht he damage gained from 4pc t5? no way.
My raid buffed starfires hit for 3300 wiht t5. 30% crit. For an average 429 damage per starfire cast. thats around 256+damage, not 57..
It has lit capacitor as being worth 78 spell damage for a balance druid and 88 spell dmage for a shaman.
A druid is looking at 30% crit, and a 3s nuke +1 1.5s one that can crit, and 1 1.5s one that cant. 4 casts that can crit in 12 seconds. Averaging .4 bolts per 12s... 2 per 60s.
A shaman is looking at 50% crit and 6 2s nukes that all can crit. (Can lit overload proc lit capacitor?) Averaging 1 bolt per 12s or 5 per 60s.
750 average damage+crits. 23% druid nature crit, 50% shaman nature crit.
30.7dps for the druid
93.7dps for the shaman
t5 pc is too low. It claims with 1200spell damage, 350crit rating, 150 hit, and a 2.7s hasted starfire, it only takes 57 +damage to matcht he damage gained from 4pc t5? no way.
My raid buffed starfires hit for 3300 wiht t5. 30% crit. For an average 429 damage per starfire cast. thats around 256+damage, not 57..
It has lit capacitor as being worth 78 spell damage for a balance druid and 88 spell dmage for a shaman.
A druid is looking at 30% crit, and a 3s nuke +1 1.5s one that can crit, and 1 1.5s one that cant. 4 casts that can crit in 12 seconds. Averaging .4 bolts per 12s... 2 per 60s.
A shaman is looking at 50% crit and 6 2s nukes that all can crit. (Can lit overload proc lit capacitor?) Averaging 1 bolt per 12s or 5 per 60s.
750 average damage+crits. 23% druid nature crit, 50% shaman nature crit.
30.7dps for the druid
93.7dps for the shaman
Ah, my fault Caliane. I should have also linked the simulation parameters to help gague the test.
Each of the profiles above contain a line spells=... that specificy the controlling logic for spell choice. This is not a spell rotation, but rather a priority list. Every time a PlayerReady event occurs, the player walks his spell list to determine what spell to cast. Each spell has a ready() method that returns true/false.
For druids, the test had moonfire, starfire, wrath all being cast at some point.
* Each of the profiles is given a spell_dmg_budget of 1200.
o This does not mean that the profile has exactly 1200 Spell Damage.
o Rather, that is the max possible Spell Damage the profile may have from gear alone.
o This value is reduced to purchase Spell Hit Rating, Spell Crit Rating, and Spell Haste Rating, maintaining equivalent ilevel gear values.
+ The Rating values are distributed evenly over the number of budget slots in your gear. (Default is 16.)
+ The item value formulas at WoW-Wiki are then used to determine the cost in Spell Damage.
o Spell Damage can be increased through enchants (and gems) which are considered to be outside the budget.
Also, the test was not using a real 1200 spell damage. I think it was 993 for a druid.
Well I would certainly call into question any testing method that doesnt reckognze that a lit capacitor is on a significantly higher magnitude for a elem shaman, then a balance druid.
Another discrepancy in the spreadsheet. Same talents, enchants, and gems. Also, the mp5 for the spreadsheet says 95 mp5 unbuffed, but in-game it has 92. Any ideas?
Indeed, it may even be possible that in mana-limiting situations, it would be more efficient to insectSwarm/moonfire and melee for mana while the DoTs run - letting loose with direct damage when the idol procs. *strokes his darkmoon card of wrath lovingly*
With 4/5 tier 5 on almost any boss fight you should have IS/MF up 100% of the time... thats alot of chances for that thing to proc...
Maybe its just my epeen and wanting that big Starfire crit with my 10% tier 5 buff and the extra spelldamage.... But i'd wonder if using that trinket would be better than my normal starfire one...
With 4/5 tier 5 on almost any boss fight you should have IS/MF up 100% of the time... thats alot of chances for that thing to proc...
Maybe its just my epeen and wanting that big Starfire crit with my 10% tier 5 buff and the extra spelldamage.... But i'd wonder if using that trinket would be better than my normal starfire one...
The only reservation will be mana consumption when using a MF/SF rotation if you have the new trinket and 4/5 T5. MF is mana expensive compared to IS. The 15% extra mana regen from Intensity will help, but more than likely you will need to start replacing some +spell damage gems or enchants with a few +mana ones if you don't regularly run with an S-priest or shaman in party.
The main problem with the new idol is the mana cost for balance druids not in t5 or better gear, or with a spreist.
Moonfire is not part of a normal druids rotation.
forgetting that, mf, sfx4 or mf/is,sfx3
The starfire idol scales with direct increases. like moonfury, curse of shadows and misery. But not wrath of cenarious. Effectively 79 damage per starfire with imp cos, misery, moonfury, 4pc t5.
This moonfire idol does scale with wrath due to it being generic spell damage. Which is good. And it increases insect swarm, stafire, wrath, or even a recasting of moonfire.
Starfire idol
mf. sfx4=308 damage per rotation. 79x3, 72x1.
mf/is/sfx3=237 damage per rotation.
moonfire idol
mf.sfx4= 241x3=724 damage while active. Averaging 50% for 361 damage per rotation.
(3 starfires would take 10.5s. so if you dont get 1 crit. you will only get the benefit of 2 starfires. Im going to count 3 however, as odds are pretty decent that you will get that 3rd off. The 4th starfire would gain no benefit unless under extreme haste/crit. fast cast meta, multiple crits.)
mf/is/sfx3 118 IS, 241x2 600 damage while active, 300 average damage.
So if you can afford moonfire, it is a damage upgrade. But, really for going from a level 67 blue 112 itemlevel, to a item level 128 epic relic, it is fairly disappointing.
Its about a 27dps increase for the mf/sfx4 rotation.
Interestingly, in pvp and non raid.
It is a HUGE gain over the wrath idol.
mf,wrath x8.
Adding 107 damge to a wrath per cast while up.
And just fyi. T5 set bonus has not been touched. Despite several other classes getting raid set bonuses reworked.
Thermo, any chance you could post a quick text version or screenshot of your gear list for getting that mp5?
As for other stuff: I may see how much I can get added/fixed tomorrow. Unfortunately I've been working nearly 60 hour 6-day weeks and commuting a total of 400 miles a week for the past month, so I haven't had much time to spend on this. I just need to remind myself that sleep is overrated.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Just make the following macros, and always use Insect Swarm before Moonfire, and you can get the benefit of all 3 idols.
#show Insect Swarm
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon
/cast Insect Swarm
#show Wrath
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Avenger] Idol of the Avenger
/cast Wrath
#show Starfire
/equip [noequipped:Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess
/cast Starfire
Three test results from the PTR (ordered by the probability of being nerfed, ascending, I suppose):
1. There is no hidden cooldown
You can spam moonfire if you want to (you wouldn't, really, but anyhow), and the idol retains the 50% chance to proc. Procs that occur while the +damage effect is up simply reset the effect's time left to 10s.
2. Rank 1 Moonfire is just as good as Rank 12 Moonfire
There appears to be no penalty for spamming low-rank moonfire to get it to proc. You'd have to do some math to figure out if it's worthwhile to cast low-rank Moonfire to get this to proc - considerations are mainly loss of short-term dps or dpm (depending on the rank you choose to spam) vs benefit gained from having this proc. [Low-rank moonfire does not override the high-rank DoT component]
3. You can unequip the idol and keep the effect
(Which is almost abusably great; consult your local moonkin for an explanation of this one)
So just making sure I'm reading this correctly and I would be able to make a macro to do the following since making macro's isn't something I'm the greatest at:
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon
/cast Insect Swarm
/cast Moonfire
/equip [noequipped:Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess
/castsequence Starfire, Starfire, Starfire
Now that should be IS, MF, SF x3 rotation but is it possible to do a MF, SF x4 rotation with the idol swapping?
So just making sure I'm reading this correctly and I would be able to make a macro to do the following since making macro's isn't something I'm the greatest at:
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon
/cast Insect Swarm
/cast Moonfire
/equip [noequipped:Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess
/castsequence Starfire, Starfire, Starfire
Now that should be IS, MF, SF x3 rotation but is it possible to do a MF, SF x4 rotation with the idol swapping?
you are going to have to split it into 2 keys, sorry!
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon
/castsequence reset=10 Insect Swarm, Moonfire
/equip [noequipped:Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess
/cast Starfire
You will lose the starfire bonus from idol on the first starfire though but its worth it.
you are going to have to split it into 2 keys, sorry!
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon
/castsequence reset=10 Insect Swarm, Moonfire
/equip [noequipped:Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess
/cast Starfire
You will lose the starfire bonus from idol on the first starfire though but its worth it.
Actually you don't lose the starfire idol bonus on the first one. Damage is calculated when the spell lands, and the idol is finished being equipped by the time the starfire finishes, It was mentioned earlier in this thread when asking how to get the spreadsheet to show dps for using both idols.
Basically for any spell with a cast time you can equip the idol after casting and have it equip in time to get the effect, it is only instant casts like Moonfire that you can't do that for. For instance I use the following macros now (I also have pass through targeting in there):
#showtooltip Healing Touch
/cast [target=target,help] Healing Touch; [target=targettarget,help] Healing Touch; [target=player] Healing Touch
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Avian Heart] Idol of the Avian Heart;
#showtooltip Regrowth
/cast [target=target,help] Regrowth; [target=targettarget,help] Regrowth; [target=player] Regrowth
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Crescent Goddess] Idol of the Crescent Goddess;
#showtooltip Starfire
/stopcasting
/cast [harm] Starfire; [target=targettarget, harm] Starfire
/equip [noequipped:Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess;
#showtooltip Wrath
/stopcasting
/cast [harm] Wrath; [target=targettarget, harm] Wrath
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Avenger] Idol of the Avenger;
edit:
Just realized the ones i use on live work because the equip is after the /cast.
10/09/07, 12:02 AM
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