Just wondering why you stopcasting wrath? Don't nature's grace procs completely fubar your sequence?
/stopcasting is for the spell previous to the one you are casting. Therefore its useful on every damage spell you are using in a rotation. Even on instant cast dots as you may wish to stop the cast of a starfire preceeding it.
/stopcasting is for the spell previous to the one you are casting. Therefore its useful on every damage spell you are using in a rotation. Even on instant cast dots as you may wish to stop the cast of a starfire preceeding it.
Yes, and also my latency is bad enough that I actually still gain a few 100ms by using it when wrath spamming (as long as I watch the Quartz global cool-down bar to make sure it is done).
Hi Ef, first off, the spreadsheet is awesome. I've finally decided to stop lurking!
I'm terrible at reading excel so hopefully you can find the problem:
The DPS reported below the customized cycle and the DPS shown in the list for comparison are different... but shouldn't they be the same? Furthermore, creating a customized cycle identical to one on the list already gives a different value. For example:
Not sure what's going on, but something weird is happening. I've already disabled most buffs(my raid group is terribly balanced), and set the fight length to 1-6 minutes, and these values are always inconsistent. Hope that's enough info!
I've figured out what's going on, and have been meaning to mention it.
The original implementation of the custom cast cycle was assuming that all ticks of your DOTs would tick out. This made Mfx8 (or any number) the highest DPS rotation. So, I added some more stringent checks to ensure that if your cast cycle was on average shorter than 12 secs (or 15 with 2-pc T6), the sheet wouldn't calculate the extra ticks of DOTs that you weren't getting.
And, between Nature's Grace and Spell Haste, for most people this means that 3x Starfire + 1x (Insect Swarm or Wrath) means that the last tick of Moonfire is being disregarded. However, this sort of stringent assumption is NOT made for the default rotations. They're designed with the assumption that DOTs are never overwritten, because the cycles are designed to be fairly close the appropriate length to make that happen. NG and Haste again may mean that that isn't happening--but the spreadsheet isn't accounting for it because it's a bit too trying to correct for every possible cycle length.
The final difference you're seeing between the cycle DPS below the custom cast cycle, and the DPS for the same cycle in the total damage area is caused by our friends the trees. They get factored in after the basic DPS of the cycle is calculated. If you turn them to "No" (same for Battle Rez) the two boxes should then match up -- as long as you have enough mana to sustain your cycle for the duration of the fight.
Edit: For an example of this effect, try changing the MFx1, SFx4 to a MFx1, SFx5 rotation on the attached spreadsheet and see the jump in DPS--this comes simply from the fact that the Moonfire DOT's last tick is no longer being overwritten.
PS-This spreadsheet has the new S3 & Badge gear, save the Idol.
Last edited by Efejel : 10/18/07 at 5:01 AM.
Reason: Spreadsheet removed, see below
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Update from last post: I've got a computer that can handle all content and have been raiding consistently with my guild. I've managed to get a number of upgrades although the Starfire Idol seems to still be rather elusive.
I've lately been trying to play with cast cycles, but no matter what I do to buffs (or gear) I can't seem to get out of the IS, SFx4 rotation. Is there something I'm missing? I'd love to start implementing MF more often for the extra crit proc chance for NG. Is a IS, SFx4 rotation standard for most moonkin?
Also, I'll be respeccing soon into Intensity (dropping FoN and Imp FF). Most of our melee is soft hit-capped at this point. I need to retain the 5/5 Subltety, I threat cap the tank too often not to have all the ranks. I'm open to other spec suggestions if anyone has any, but I'm mainly inquiring about spell rotations.
Thanks for the sheet Efejel, I can't tell you how much it's helped me out.
Also, a note about the 2.3 patch notes. The server will accept incoming spell requests while the client side still shows as casting, effectively negating the need for /stopcasting macros (or so it says in the patch notes).
I've lately been trying to play with cast cycles, but no matter what I do to buffs (or gear) I can't seem to get out of the IS, SFx4 rotation. Is there something I'm missing? I'd love to start implementing MF more often for the extra crit proc chance for NG. Is a IS, SFx4 rotation standard for most moonkin?
You haven't really provided enough information to really show what you mean by this.
Are you saying that SFx4+IS is more dps for you than wrath spam?
Because (generally, and in my experience) wrath spam has alot more dps until you reach the end of the tier 5 gear level.
Are you are saying that you have to do that because you are mana capped?
Because yes with your gear level (and even at my gear level) you will mana cap on every boss fight. I don't really know what to say about this other than guzzle mana pots and try to replace some of your gear. Those epic rings may be better that what you have but its unfortunate to not get anything but stamina out of them. You are exalted with Violet Eye i'd use that ring. You will ALWAYS need your own innervate on boss fights. You have to work it out with your guild so they don't come to rely on your innervate and that when you have a chance to use it on them its a freak occurrence
Overall 4x Starfire + IS is probably a good habit to get into on boss fights anyhow. IS miss % on single target bosses more than makes up for the low dps you do.
EDIT: For me 4x Starfire + IS is standard for any boss that I feel has the chance to spike kill the tank (IE: Prince back in the day or Morogrim now) but i tend to MF + 4x SF on bosses that aren't as bad on the tank.
Originally Posted by Allurissa
Also, I'll be respeccing soon into Intensity (dropping FoN and Imp FF). Most of our melee is soft hit-capped at this point. I need to retain the 5/5 Subtlety, I threat cap the tank too often not to have all the ranks. I'm open to other spec suggestions if anyone has any, but I'm mainly inquiring about spell rotations.
Don't take 5/5 subtlety. On boss fights if you consistently threat cap the tank it is a sign of a bad tank and no amount of -%threat is going to help enough. Its just plain not worth it. The 2 points for FF into Int will help. I personally would take a point out of subelty instead of Force of Nature. Think about it like this. FoN = ~50k threat free damage over X mins. Unless you are going 5 MILLION damage over that same time frame FoN is much better. Not to mention its a set it and forget it spell. Plus its our marquee spell
Good luck with the boom'ing... hopefully not to much oom'ing
EDIT: On last nights full ssc clear I did 3,804,809 damage and my treants were 73,553 of that damage (almost 2% of my total damage) and that with me casting them very randomly. FoN is worth the point.
I almost never use wrath unless the mob is immune to arcane damage. Reason: I find it cuts into and can cut off the bonus from NG. Maybe it's just me though.
The spell rotation I'm using comes from Efejel's handy spreadsheet. By trying out other cast cycles, I have played a little bit in game, but mostly on the spreadsheet, trying to tweak it to come up with something else. I've tried MF, IS, SFx3 and MF, SFx3, IS, SFx3. I find those two cycles use a ton of mana though. While I can get sidetracked, I try hard to stick to the most mana and damage efficient spell rotation from the sheet.
Our current content is SSC/Eye. We can consistently down Hydross, Lurker, Tidewalker and VR. We are hoping to down Karathress this week and move to Leo.
Don't take 5/5 subtlety. On boss fights if you consistently threat cap the tank it is a sign of a bad tank and no amount of -%threat is going to help enough. Its just plain not worth it. The 2 points for FF into Int will help. I personally would take a point out of subelty instead of Force of Nature. Think about it like this. FoN = ~50k threat free damage over X mins. Unless you are going 5 MILLION damage over that same time frame FoN is much better. Not to mention its a set it and forget it spell. Plus its our marquee spell
Our tank is one of the very best that I know and he's incredibly well geared (compared to our other tanks). I usually have to wait until 10k threat to start casting starfires. On fights like VR, I typically start threat capping between the 5 and 6 minute mark. Hydross is even worse because the entire fight is so threat sensitive. I'm also running the Subtlety enchant to my cloak because of this.
For reference here are some WWS reports from this past weekends raids. The reports are the anonymous versions as requested by our RC's.
Wow Web Stats (Hydross, Attempts on Karathress: I'm listed as Cumulus) Wow Web Stats (Magtheridon: I'm listed as Cumulus) Wow Web Stats (Void Reaver: I'm listed as Snow)
I'm actually pretty embarassed by the VR stats. I really think I should have and can do better, particularly since I had just gained my T4 Chestpiece.
Any other advice (with the addition of the recent dps meters) is very welcome.
The new spreadsheet gives me a #DIV/0! when i remove moonfire from the custom cast cycle. As long as the custom cycle includes MF, everything checks out.
Also, would it be weird if the spreadsheet was telling me that the best cast cycle for dps is a 10x SF + 1xMF rotation with the T5 4pc bonus on? I hope it isn't assuming the T5 bonus is active throughout the 10x SF casting period.
Ef -
Hm, ok. I finally got the numbers to match up. It seems like the custom cast cycle assumes you have Nature's Grace automatically instead of grabbing it from the character sheet. I had to set the latency to something huge like 700 ms to get the numbers to finally match up.
Also, I did forget to mention the divide by 0 bug. The older versions have it too. Insect swarm doesn't have this problem either.
Allurissa-
My raid group isn't quite where you're at yet(Finally got Lurker and VR down a few weeks ago), but I do end up using wrath a lot, because I like stealing stormstrike charges, and because for fights like VR, if you have an arcane orb launched at you, setting up a starfire is very risky whereas a wrath wouldn't be as risky. You rarely ever get to sit in place during the whole fight, so I use wrath when I need to be mobile.
Looking over your WWS, I'm not seeing very heavy potion use. I make sure to chug potions early and often, so doing a IS MF SFx3 rotation is generally sustainable. Without a shadow priest and little mana pot usage, I'm not sure you can really do much besides the standard IS SFx4 rotation. I think if you took your current setup and just drank pots as much as possible, you could do the moonfire rotation for most of the fight. Getting intensity will definitely help, especially after 2.3.
My advice would be to try weaving in the MF rotation after the tank builds enough threat, and making sure to drink pots as much as possible. If your mana gets too low, switch back to the mana conservation rotation, and possibly even downrank the starfire one or two ranks. Or you could just offer to buy oreos for shadow priests who join your group.
Div/0 error fixed
Checking now implemented for IS too (custom cycles only) Automatic trinket detection enabled for Alchemist's Stone & Bangle of Endless Blessings
Innervate re-worked may/may not be more accurate.
T5 chest socket bonus fixed
Saraya, I'm not seeing any change with Nature's Grace. It should be grabbing whatever is input in the Talents tab, albeit indirectly.
Known "To Do" list:
Add new cloth gear
Attempt to make spreadsheet mp5 match in-game mp5
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Last edited by Efejel : 10/18/07 at 5:50 AM.
Reason: Updated spreadsheet again.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Thanks for the advice Saraya. You'll notice we don't have an elemental shaman on our WWS reports. I'm fairly positive we only have two shamans in the guild, both Resto build. We also only have 2 shadow priests in the guild, neither of whom are really geared well enough for SSC/Eye.
I do use my Alchemist Stone during longer, mana intensive boss fights, so I'll get better about chugging pots and try rotating to the more mana cast cycle to see what happens. Our guild is on the PTR where I have used my new build, so we'll see what happens in ZA with the changes to intensity.
Decided to stop trolling and actually post for once. I put my gear into the spreadsheet with my custom, ISx1 MFx1 SFx3 and am pulling down a final value of 100+ dps above my greatest attempt to date. Now obviously this doesn't allow for any movement or deviation from the cycle, I am just curious if anyone has been able to attain or come close to their projected maximum dps?
Decided to stop trolling and actually post for once. I put my gear into the spreadsheet with my custom, ISx1 MFx1 SFx3 and am pulling down a final value of 100+ dps above my greatest attempt to date. Now obviously this doesn't allow for any movement or deviation from the cycle, I am just curious if anyone has been able to attain or come close to their projected maximum dps?
Make sure you set all the variables as close to real as you can.
Are you factoring ff in your rotations?
1 1.5s global every 40s is 3.7% total dps reduction.
Latency, movenment, interrupts, any offhealing.
When these are factored in, my dps is very close to projected.
Make sure you set all the variables as close to real as you can.
Are you factoring ff in your rotations?
1 1.5s global every 40s is 3.7% total dps reduction.
Latency, movenment, interrupts, any offhealing.
When these are factored in, my dps is very close to projected.
I'm not iFF duty, we run with 2 balance druids occasionally. I was considering switching to a straight SF only rotation when he is in the lineup as well. Since I'll still achieve the extra 10% from his debuffs.
I am curious though as to what your dps spreadsheet value is in comparison to your real time numbers. You and I should be almost dead even with only party buffs coming into play.
My other thought is if as you stated moving around significantly decreases our dps output, at what point would crit and haste begin to truly shine? A simple argument of Potential Damage vs Practical Damage.
I have used your spreadsheet fr a couple of months now and ir really like it, during this time i have however found a few minor errors. Im not sure if i can fix it myself(i am far from a computer wiz).
First off, Magnified Moonspecs are missing a socket.
Second, the Yellow Gem - Brilliant Lions Eye - says it adds 10hit(it should say 10int). Now the gem adds intellect and not spell hit, but it seems to add only 5 intellect instead of 10.
I now have a simple question. Will you be updating the item database with the items from patch 2.3 and the Hyjal Summit spelldamage mace? Since there is alot of gear that can change the outcome of the whole boomkin community, and i for one would love to experiment with it. If your answer is NO, is there some simple way for myself to add teh items?
I have used your spreadsheet fr a couple of months now and ir really like it, during this time i have however found a few minor errors. Im not sure if i can fix it myself(i am far from a computer wiz).
First off, Magnified Moonspecs are missing a socket.
Second, the Yellow Gem - Brilliant Lions Eye - says it adds 10hit(it should say 10int). Now the gem adds intellect and not spell hit, but it seems to add only 5 intellect instead of 10.
I now have a simple question. Will you be updating the item database with the items from patch 2.3 and the Hyjal Summit spelldamage mace? Since there is alot of gear that can change the outcome of the whole boomkin community, and i for one would love to experiment with it. If your answer is NO, is there some simple way for myself to add teh items?
Thanks
P.s. Love the spreadsheet
Yes, he said how a while back.
Simply, go up to "Format".
Choose "Sheet"_> Unhide.
Then choose which sheet you want to add the item too.
Weapons in your case.
"Insert" a line where the weapon should be. For ease, make sure it is not the first or the last enter. That will cause problems.
Add the stats and name.
For, weapons be sure to label 1 or 2 hand.
As Caliane has mentioned, there are directions in the thread (the short & sweet version above should get you going) for adding your own items. I do, however, intend to add all the relevant post-BC loot that I can keep up with. If you see anything missing in the latest build please provide a Wowhead link or you can use EJ's ultra-cool [ item ] Item Name [ /item] (no spaces) if you know the exact name.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Thanks alot ill add the items then let the games begin ^^
btw i was looking at alot of the rotations people have and i have tried alot of them, but i dont see how they can stay in a fight with those rotations for very long cause they all seem to eat away at your mana :/
I tried all kinds of rotations like "IS x1, MF x1, SF x1, Wr x1, SF x2" or "IS x1 MFx1 SFx3"
All of these are nice since you basicly re apply dots as son as possible, but even if you use mana pots and innervate you are pretty much out of mana just when the fights get tough.
I normaly go with a totaly random rotation on trash(all depending on how fast the mob will go down), but for boss fights, the one "safe" rotation that can keep be going thru a whole fight(if i dont heal) and keep me around top 5 dpsers is the one recommended in the spreadsheet "MF x1, SF x5 MF x1 SF x6" also i use some nice "while not casting" mp5 ticks when i have used my innervate, just to make sure i wont go oom to soon and still not loose any dps.
My guild just started to raid Hyjal and BT, and so far i allways get a shadowpriest and an elemental shammy(The A-Team) and its working great, but with this rotation it all comes down to if i am lucky with crits or not.
Known "To Do" list:
Add new cloth gear
Attempt to make spreadsheet mp5 match in-game mp5
If I am the only one reporting the mp5 not matching, cross it off your to-do list. I have made several spreadsheets using the gamma release and cannot recreate the mp5 mismatch i reported earlier. Seems fine now. Chalk it up to user input error.
EDIT: Also, if you want, I already input the cloth items, weapons, and rings/trinkets if you want me to repost your gamma release to you. Might save you time. The only issue I ran into inputting the new items is the new [Signet of Ancient Magics]. It has a socket and the spreadsheet isn't built to accommodate rings with sockets.
You win Caline. (: On my best attempt I peaked at 1568 dps on Teron and and died at 1499.1. Just used a MFx1 SFx3, I'd squeeze in a wrath at the end if I got grace or focus procs. Thanks for the idea.
If I am the only one reporting the mp5 not matching, cross it off your to-do list. I have made several spreadsheets using the gamma release and cannot recreate the mp5 mismatch i reported earlier. Seems fine now. Chalk it up to user input error.
EDIT: Also, if you want, I already input the cloth items, weapons, and rings/trinkets if you want me to repost your gamma release to you. Might save you time. The only issue I ran into inputting the new items is the new [Signet of Ancient Magics]. It has a socket and the spreadsheet isn't built to accommodate rings with sockets.
Thanks Thermo. I'm glad the mp5 error may have cleared up, and I won't chalk it up to user error--probably just ghosts in the machine. I also appreciate the offer for the updated spreadsheet. Someone else has volunteered as well, but whomever is interested. Upload somewhere & PM me a link or you may be able to find my e-mail address here.
As for the ring--it's a semi-known problem that rings can have sockets, but to this point the only ones that did were utter crap at level 70. I'll think about going through the motions to make rings socketable on the sheet now that demand has more than doubled!
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Looking over some of the hidden sheets it looks like you're starting on this, but I'll suggest / strongly support (depending on its status I guess) making upgrade ratings visible.
Having a simple set of boxes giving weightings to the various stats would be wonderful beyond words. Pawn and to a lesser extent lootzor (if only they would implement haste ratings!) are things I use regularly to plan optimal upgrade paths.
My Excel-fu is not up to par, so I've been going into the equipment sheet and getting values for the weightings by adding to the manual entry cells and calculating the DPS changes on another spreadsheet. Not doing this every time I get an upgrade would be fantastic.
A very small note as well--I'm now on Malygos rather than Zul'Jin (and happily raiding as a moonkin finally!).
Thanks for the support/suggestion Lore. I've been hoping someone would take what I had started, find & fix any errors, and figure out a useful way to present the ratings. Unfortunately, that info has been around in the hidden sheets for the last couple of versions and no one has championed the cause yet.
I'm definately trying to figure it out. As of right now, I'm not particularly confident in the numbers I'm generating for the next-1 hit/crit/dmg... the values for hit are very low compared to every other prediction I've seen.
That being said, what other stats would you value? Haste might be a good one, but I would be surprised if the numbers from +1 haste had a lot of insight. Int and Spirit, and perhaps mp5 give me the same feeling--+1 is too small a margin to make accurate predictions from. Maybe I'll move to a +10 stat = +N DPS style?
P.S.-Grats on the transfer/raiding opportunity!
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
For my weightings I've been doing a very imprecise hand-waving weighted of average of 5, 10, and 25 of each stat. I use 25 (occasionally 50 if I have the patience) as more of a trend/reality check and to figure out breakpoints between cycles.
The times I've been particularly ambitious I've tried to convert the rough weightings into DPS potential, but usually I just use +spellpower equivalence.
For lootzor I've been weighting all of the caster stats except haste. If I were to order the importance of knowing how to value them, I'd go damage, hit, crit, mp5, haste, int/spi.
Haste only falls to the end mainly because the items with static haste are pretty much unattainable to me until 2.3, and better than my current options even without factoring it in after that point.
Mp5 is the most frustrating stat for me at the moment. I'm not always in with a shadow priest or shaman (and rarely both), but I am at times. I don't yet have the breadth of gear to have two sets depending on the group, so I'm either mana-starved or wasting a good chunk of regen. Swapping food and oils helps somewhat, but it doesn't completely solve things.
It is too bad there aren't any mp5/damage gems readily available. I'd be all over those.
I am curious about real world numbers as well. My guild has recently started T6 content and I wonder how I stack up with other moonkins at this level. They are so hard to find
Right now I seem to be cruising at around 1200dps or so.
10/15/07, 7:52 PM
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