Nerfy

MF and IS are both instant casts. How can you haste a spell that is already instant? Wrath already doesn't take full effect of Nature's grace because of the global cooldown so hasting that is useless too. SF it does effect since its a 3s cast.

 

Tublade

Yes, IS, MF and Wrath I understand. SF not though, and since it is our main dps spell in raids.. .

 

Efejel

Moonkin have access to relatively few spell rotations. Thus, we're somewhat limited in our ability to make use of the shadow priest's mana. Mages, on the other hand, have many rotations they can use, including what I understand to be the incredibly inefficient but high-DPS Arcane Blast "spam" rotation.

For example, Vontre's Mage Spreadsheet (yes, I know, I'm violating my own rules here by directly comparing spreadsheets) is showing an Arcane spec mage spamming AB, with Elem Shaman buffs, is capable of about 1825 DPS (probably more if someone who knew what they were doing did the configuration), but can sustain it for only about 1 min 30 sec without the mana of a shadow priest. What I've seen in terms of theoretical max Moonkin DPS is still significantly behind that, probably more so than can be made up by the 5% crit for 2x Mages, and 1 each Elem Shammy & Shadow Priest.

Bear in mind I'm not saying there's no reason to bring a Moonkin over a mage; innervate for a shadow priest, battle rez, and--if appropriate for your guild's needs--imp FF, are all good reasons that together (especially the battle rez) can equal more DPS in the long run.

And, as I said, the overall better raid configuration is probably to have at least one of your 3 mages spec away from AB spam and to stick them somewhere else, like in a spare spot in a group with a Resto Shaman or a BM hunter.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Caliane

Mages do make great use of spreists. While they do have better dpm then a balance druid as fire/ice. Arcane mages have higher mana burn.
Spriests mana return is near worthless for a lock.
Elem shaman/druid Crit is worthless for the spriest.

We are talking synergies.
Shaman, druid buff each other very well. Locks get buffs from shaman and druid very well. Everyones happy.

Everyone loves shaman. But only mages/druids/destro locks love elem shaman.

Spreist/resto shaman benefit each other perfectly well. Then the mages get the 101damage, and uber mana regen.
Mages certainly could benefit from balance druid and elem shaman as well. Its the spriest that doesnt.



You misread.

haste effects SF. (Wrath on mobility fights thats very very very situationaly.)
Haste does not effect Wrath sustained dps, Insect swarm, or moonfire.

Crit effects wrath, starfire, moonfire.

 

Tublade

Hmm, strange that our spriests are always very happy when I am in their group. If you say that they don't use the extra crit, then they might be ignorant of that themselves as well. I will check with them why they want to be in my group .

As to spriests for Moonkin: I understood that Moonkin have the biggest mana issues, and that they should always have a spriest if possible to be able to do good DPS. Mages on the other hand have their mana gems and more. Oke, like Efejel mentioned, if mages start AB'ing to do high DPS at the cost of mana efficiency, yes, a spriest would be nice for them. But is that dps cycle even remotely feasible in reality, for example in BT/MH? I never see our mages jumping around AB'ing all the time, not to speak of aggro? Ok, I am a new Moonkin (3 weeks now) so I don't know much about it yet, so I might be wrong here .

Let's assume that the spriest is not optimal in a group with a Moonkin. How many here raid MH/BT without a spriest in their group, and how do they fare with mana? Maybe I must change my mana management then... if I have to do without a spriest. Right now I don't even have to use my Innervate myself, I just give it to the spriest.

Hehe I must say it will be very difficult to convince the mages that the elem.shaman and me should be with the locks, and not with them .




Yes, my bad, I am sorry.

 

Efejel

Tublade,

Large portions of what we're talking about here are going to be very dependent on exactly what group make-ups your raid generally uses, the specs of the people involved, and both individual levels & overall levels of gear progression.

I don't begin to know everything about all of the other caster classes, but from my understanding there are certain break-points at which Arcane (2 pc. T5) for mages and Destruction (I believe this is definately about overall gear level) for 'locks both gain huge ground on the other popular specs.

And don't necessarily assume the Shadow Priests are happy that you're grouped together because you're helping them; they might instead be happy to be helping you.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

◊ Lorewanderer

Shadow priests benefit minimally from crit because the majority of their damage is from dots. They love being in my group though because when we're grouped they get priority on my Innervate, hehe. With a good shadow priest in your group you'll usually get better returns (raid DPS-wise, which is what actually matters) by giving them the innervate. I'm able to maintain an IS/MF/SFx3 rotation for the duration of most fights now without going OOM. Being a leatherworker it also allows me to use haste drums rather than the mana ones--mini-bloodlust every 2 min helps the shadow priest too!

As far as group composition, it comes down to theorycraft versus reality. In theory a third Mage may outperform a Moonkin + Aura to the other four in a caster group, but it depends much more on the actual performance of the players involved. If the Moonkin is outperforming a mage, I'd certainly hope they get preference for the shadow priest group.

Hopefully what will be happening is your raid leader will pay attention to the actual numbers that players are producing rather than the theoretical class maximum. Our raid lead has the five top caster DPS in the Caster Group o' Doom (Arcane Mage, Destro Lock, Ele Shaman, Moonkin, Spriest) and the remaining casters in a second group. The CGoD is full of people who make full use of consumables, intelligent rotations, and generally theorycraft quite a bit. The second group... not so much.
With our current setup we've literally reduced kill times for some bosses by a full minute. Some of it is gear improving, but not that drastically much.

 

Efejel

v0.72b
-Added [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond] / Removed [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
-Corrected socket bonus on [Illidari Shoulderpads]
-Added [The Horseman's Signet Ring]

Now available.

P.S.-Please let me know if the issue with Super Mana Pots is still present. Seemed to be working for me.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Caliane

uhm.
Thats a sword Efejal.

 

Efejel

Damn. No wonder I missed it the first time. Forgetting to select "Usable by: Druid" from wowhead search FTL.

I mean... I don't know what you're talking about.

>.>

<.<

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Saraya

A few things:
1) Regarding 2pc T4 - Looking over my past month's WWS logs, I pretty much get 1 proc for each minute I'm dpsing, give or take one or two procs from time to time. This averages out to 10mp5 instead of the 15mp5 on the spreadsheet. I'm curious if anyone else still uses this set and sees similar results?

2) I'm not quite sure how to properly model this, so maybe one of you has an idea :B. Let's say I'm using a MF SFx4 cast cycle(this is my best cycle according to the spreadsheet). If I pop some sort of damage trinket(like Icon of the Silver Crescent), is it worth doing IS MF SFx3 for two cycles? Or maybe continue on the MF SFx4 as usual, but then sneak in a IS at the very end before the bonus is lost? Or does just continuing on the same MF SFx4 rotation still produce the best results?

3) This is more just random, but since I'm running out of mana on the spreadsheet for a 10 minute fight(like at 9m 53 seconds), Bracers of the White Stag show up to be > the new Armwraps of the Kaldorei Protector... but I just can't ever justify taking 22 spirit over 6 int, 24 crit and 7 damage no matter what. It's actually quite bewildering to me. Obviously the new bracers are better since there are 0 fights where I just get to sit there and cast so mana doesn't actually run out.

Edit:
Ef, I think there's a problem with the Manual Entry options when the race is Night Elf. If I add Int, or Spirit in a mana limited fight, the spreadsheet says I actually lose DPS, but if the race is set to Tauren it behaves normally.

 

Efejel

Ha.... Working as intended!

Not really, I'll try and look at this, and make sure that there aren't any special bonuses for avoiding going OOM vs. having just enough mana to last the fight (as you described with the White Stag vs. Armwraps).

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Vandiego

I'm kind of curious as to what the stat lines are people are pulling with their wish lists?

Caster Form:

441 Sta
435 Int
263 Spi
137 Hit
28.32 Crit
1185 +dam/heal
94 mp5

My group runs 4 LW's now, so you can add an extra +30 damage if you want.

Ele Sham
Ele Sham
Me
BM Hunter
SP

Oh, and thanks again Efejel, I love this thing. (:

Edit: How are ya'll factoring in destruction pots?

 

Justix

Efejel,

I am curious as to whether this idol or the Starfire idol will be better for overall DPS, my limited testing on the PTR suggests that the spell damage effect on the Moonfire idol triggers quite often (every2-3 casts of moonfire).

I was thinking about a spell rotation that could include a lower rank cast of Moonfire in addition to cause the spell damage effect to trigger more often. It looks to me like this new Moonfire idol could significantly raise overall DPS as compared to the Starfire idol if used to its full potential.

Ultimately I am wondering what is your opinion of the DPS viability for this new idol? Your spreadsheet has become my Moonkin manual and I would greatly appreciate your insight.

Justix

 

Caliane

I would say wasting the 1.5s global cooldown for a low rank moonfire would pretty much ruin any dps gain from using the idol.
That being said, the idol is invarably higher dps then the others. The only problem is, can you afford the mana for using moonfire at all? If so, use it, and max rank moonfire. possibly use the macros posted earlier for using both idols. If not, stick with the starfire idol.

 

Caliane

Destro pots and the new idol as a choice would be nice if not too hard to model. Probably too hard to really do.

Ill have to break it down later. As the spreadsheet shows haste more effective then I personal consider it. Spreadsheet shows zhar doom as much higher dps then s3 dagger+chronicle of dark secrets. Something I just cant agree with from experiance. Ill have to look closer to see if this is my judgment error, or an error with the spreadsheets assumptions.

My dream gear gives:
516stam
452 int
284 spirit
22.4% crit (char sheet)
147 hit rating
31 haste rating
1371 damage
85mp/5

3s to moonfire
5% crit to starfire
Use: 175 spell haste for 20s.
Use: 211 spell damage for 20s.
Chance on hit: 95 spell damage for 10s.
Unseen moon idol of course as well.


And is that really waht you run with? wth. Do you not give buffs to your destro locks or fire/arc mages?

 

Vandiego

We run 2 caster groups.

 

Kasi

Damn, that is one sweet group. Do you not have a shaman for the mages to? You guys run 3 elementals? Seems crazy, but that group is perfectly ideal for a shaman. It does seem to be a bit crazy on the stacking though, unless you really do have 3 elemental shamans. If you only had 2 you could put a resto in there and stick an elemental in the other group for minimal loss.

 

Caliane

we run:
destro lock
Destro lock
Balance druid
elem/resto shaman
fire mage/spreist/destro lock dependig on who is online.

mage
mage
mage
resto shaman
spreist

 

Vandiego

We run insane amounts of hybrid classes. We had 6 Shaman tonight.

If I remember correctly tonight we had:

Myself
Primary Ele
Shadow
Fire Mage.... Who's damage F'ing skyrocketed tonight

Last spot was:

Rage: Dest Lock
Ane: BM Hunt
Kaz: BM Hunt
Azg: Ele Sham
Arch: (I wasn't in the group we only had 3 decursers and couldn't put 2 together, not that I do crap for dps on this fight as is.)

Naj: Ele Sham
Sup: Ele Sham
Aka: Ele Sham

Our group was pretty much top 5 or 6 every fight with a couple rogues sneaking in there.

 

Efejel

In the spreadsheet, yeah. I keep dreaming of a Monte Carlo simulation as the back-end of a web-site. The sort of response the sheet has gotten has definately encouraged me to think more and more about it. No promises, but the daydream has started to come along with practical considerations like how much $$ per month for a web server that would let me run an application of that nature...

Haste plays VERY nicely with static formulas. Especially with latency & all that jazz. It also seems to get better & better as you're able to stack more & more. (Hence why the semi-max-DPS gearset I tried to upload the spreadsheet with is showing off lots of it.)

As for the new Moonfire Idol: trust the opinions of Caliane & other raiding Moonkin. My RL has turned my playtime on it's ear, so the last "end-game" fight I participated in was our first attempts on Hydross the Unstable in April/May... not exactly a solid basis for practical advice. Theoretically, I believe Caliane also showed that ~50% proc rate on the new idol puts it on par with the starfire idol, but doesn't produce a clear winner. I will toss out a little more theory-crafting, & I'd suggest it if you're doing MF, SF SF, IS, SF SF SF for the 4-pc T5 bonus, as the extra damage on the IS should bump it up a bit.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Tyjet

Very good job on this spreadsheet, but I have a few requests/fixes.

- Could you please implement stamina/resilience/HP properly so we can see pvp stats? (maybe even armour too)
- The seal of danzalar and 10 resilience gem missing from ring and gem lists.

Currently using your spreadsheet to calculate what my stats will be like when I've bought a load of S1/S2/S3 arena gear and honour gear. I'm adding up the resilience manually at the moment. But it would be nice if I didnt have to

 

Saraya

While it might be a nice feature, for stuff like PVP and even Moonkin tanking, you pretty much have one choice for gear to use: Arena/PVP gear. The only exception as you noted is the Seal of Danzalar. For a little help with manually adding up the resillience though, S2 and S3 gear have the exact same resil values.

Efejel, I've updated my gear to the new gear I bought with badges(Moonwalkers and Elunite thingy), and the the strange DPS loss is no more... but it may have had something to do with the way mp5(and possible mana regen in general) is handled in the spreadsheet.

I've gone over a lot of sets of armor and haven't gotten a consistent way to reproduce this problem, but I did find something very strange. First, ensure you're in a mana limited fight, by setting shadow priest regen to something low and making the fight like 100 minutes. Next turn on the T4 2 pc bonus(which averages out to 15mp5 on the spreadsheet). Note the maximum DPS value, and turn the T4 2pc bonus off. Now go to the quick add, and add 15 mp5. You should be a bit off in dps. Set it to 21 mp5 and you should have the same value as what you got with the T4 2pc bonus.

...Hopefully that didn't make your head a splode.

 

Tyjet

Resilience isn't really a problem as it can be added up easily. HP is more complicated as I don't have enough access to websites here at work* to work out how much HP 650stamina will give me. I want to make sure I have 10k hp before I start choosing gems

*no thottbot, no wowhead, no mmo-champion, no worldofraids.com. Only my guild's forums and this website works

 

Khalanis

I'm not sure if anyone else tested it, but I should point out that you can switch the new MF idol in the same macro as casting moonfire and it WILL proc. Here's Tuesday's WWS with me using the idol, I found it to proc a bit less than 50% myself, but considering that it's essentially free dmg with idol macros it's hard to complain(although I would LOOOVE to see the effect extended to 11 or even 12 seconds so I could reliably get the bonus for 3 SFs, as it stands now, you need at least 1 crit, which isn't unreasonable, but you also need near perfect timing on casts aswell, which can be a bitch even though 2.3 made it easier).