Neato, will add. Didn't know they had added new foods this patch. Any other new consumables I should be aware of?

May not have been documented: Mana Spring was also changed for 2.3 from 30 mp5 -> 50 mp5. The new sheet defaults to 50. Try adding 20 Shad Priest / Gear Select "custom" mana regen in 0.71b and see if you get the same numbers.

Yes, it is. I wish I had an answer for you. I can tell you a basic MC simulation will NOT help with this problem, you would need a fight simulator that took into account timed abilities & phase specific cast rotations, etc. At that point, one is practically re-writing the game, just without all the pretty animations (Ok, I'm exaggerating a bit, but it would still be a SIGNIFICANT chunk of work.) More thoughts on this at the end...

A decent suggestion, especially since from what I understand the default behavior is more similar to this. Not a high priority at this point though. I'll add it to the "to do" list behind DPS comparison, DPS ratings, and adding +healing gear.

The stickied thread at the top of this forum says the generally accepted behavior is Heroism/Bloodlust are the ONLY GCD reducers. Haste does not do that trick any more than NG does it.

Non-static benefits are where the MC simulation comes in handy. The thing with Quag's Eye is it's going to force you to adapt your spell rotation on the fly. What do you do if it procs after Moonfire? After IS? After the last Starfire before you would normally re-apply MF/IS/FF? All procs/activated CD abilities are going to sometimes occur/come off CD just when they're most beneficial, and sometimes just when they're completely worthless.

I'll definately look this list over. Most of the higher-end epic healing gear I'll be adding, as it should be at least on par with the more easily accessible end-game blues, and thus a good choice for restos looking to convert or try the spec out. (Or moonkin who have bad luck getting gear for their actual spec).

First off, here's a proc, so another bad item on the spreadsheet. Second, I don't yet have this idol, and there doesn't seem to be consensus on how best to use it. Until I can personally try it out to know how to model (at all) it's behavior on the spreadsheet, I'm going to have to at least wait until the controversy on how it's getting macro'ed in is worked out.

It's hard to tell if you're doing anything wrong (your shadow priest mp5 seems especially high, considering misery is turned off... JoW uptime is better than it ever was w/ my guild, but they've buffed Ret in that regard... it used to be you'd want to double your actual observed latency, but 2.3 should have removed that need), or if the sheet is simply over-estimating. Sometimes you have to do reality checks like: Do you find that you're in fact capable of finishing a 10-min fight with mana left, with that kind of consumable usage? Am I really using 4 mana pots and 2 self-innervates? Do my totem buffs ever fade? etc.

I will say that I would WELCOME a close inspection of any of the equations I'm using, as I don't know that anyone has taken the time to check them directly, only to make observations of input-->output correlations and confirm they make at least a slight bit of sense.

The undocumented in 2.3 thread posts a log of wraths with 1s GCD. how big does this shake things up?

Yes, ive been using this for quiet some time.

I have the Illidan staff (lucky enough to get it pre haste buff, when everyone wanted the tempest instead) and 2 BT trash rings. The hyjal belt refused to drop for about 25 clears now, but it already works with calculating in one crit.
With 35% crit on Starfires in t6 the odds of having no crit in 5 casts is.... well some math crack can calculate it exactly, but it has to be very low.

The side effect with haste is that you loose some of the speed gain of NG. Its weird, but NG is somehow managed as a haste proc that scales in the new blizz way since 2.0. Meaning the -0.5sec actually gets reduced to -0.45sec if you have 10% haste already. At least this was the case in 2.1, i actually havent tested if they changed something about that.

Did anyone check if the Mystical Skyfire proc does the same?

What?
ill have to look into that.

Becuase that would be HUGE.


11/17 13:16:15.937 Your Wrath crits Black Blood of Draenor for 1415 Nature damage.
11/17 13:16:16.140 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 13:16:16.281 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 13:16:17.109 Your Wrath crits Black Blood of Draenor for 1447 Nature damage.
11/17 13:16:17.765 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 13:16:17.937 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 13:16:18.140 Your Wrath crits Black Blood of Draenor for 1505 Nature damage.

The combatlog entrys are when the wrath lands, more evidance would be needed.

But, that shows 3 crit wraths landing about 1second apart.
(1.47cast time on wrath, without nat grace. .97s cast time with nat grace.)
this is very interesting. If true and intended, a massive buff.

The implications for wrath max dps are high. As well has pvp crit burst potential. Nat grace is a flat mod. 14% faster cast for starfire, but a 33% faster cast for wrath.
Crit stacking with wrath, and possibly even lit capacitor. Druid version of arcane blast.


11/17 14:19:33.609 You gain Nature's Grace.
11/17 14:19:33.671 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:33.890 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:34.046 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:34.421 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:34.578 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:34.765 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:34.828 Your Wrath crits Dr. Boom for 2802 Nature damage.
11/17 14:19:34.906 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:35.265 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:35.421 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:35.562 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:35.734 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:35.859 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:36.171 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:36.359 Your Wrath crits Dr. Boom for 2853 Nature damage.
11/17 14:19:36.468 You fail to cast Wrath: Not yet recovered.
11/17 14:19:36.546 Nature's Grace fades from you.

2.937s From gain of nat grace which marks the start of the first cast, to nat grace fade which marks the cast of the 3rd wrath. which lands with 1.2s travel time.
This log suggests people are imagining things. as 3s for 2 casts is correct. Although the log still shows it being less then 3s.. which is odd. possible the extra time is from latency? more evidance needed.

Based on frame-stepping a fraps capture of spamming wrath, no, the GCD is still 1.5 seconds even with Nature's Grace procced. Given that travel time of the spell you can't really gauge it off a combatlog.

Any of you embraced cast sequence macros yet? I tried one vs Illidan on Thursday, I was able to push upwards of 1800 dps, but, without having a shadow priest and needing to save my pot and innervate for P2, I'd go in and melee back to full. Needless to say, I am quite excited to see how well I do with this next week. Granted its really only usable on tank and spank fights, but fun nonetheless.

I'm trying to write a sequence using idol of the unseen to keep it up 100% of the time, or at least have the chance too, but I'm not having much luck. Using R1 just to get the proc isn't appearing as ideal as I'd hoped.

Hmm,

When you get a chance try out a 2 Piece T6 & Wrath Spam test on Boom. With the new meta I'm pulling 1350 dps til OOM, but the surprising thing is I'm getting about 200 damage on average from the meta. My base is hitting for 1400 on average and my crits are right at 3k give or take 20 damage.

I've run about 15 mana bars on him thus far and am still seeing the GCD at 1.5 on wrath.

In your boom testing did you have any haste items like quag's eye? I'd be very supprised it Blizzard fixed nature's grace to work on wrath but haste I'm pretty sure does work.... still need proof though.

Would a combat log of wrath spamming boom work since nether me or him will be moving?

I havn't got any other spell caster ones but they added alot, I've picked up +hit for melee so there might be a +spell hit one too.

I have mana spring set to 0 in both cases, any other ideas?

Determining the exact game mechanics would be a nightmare, but could you aproximate it the same way you account to dps loss to batleres? just let the user input time not casting. It won't be perfect but it might let us get closer to real DPS results.



I just frapsed myself on Dr. Boom and saw my quag's eye proc.... your right no change in GCD, DOH!


Doing it perfectly might be too hard, but you should be able to average it presuming no change in cast cycle. While it's not perfect it still gets us closer to accurate than ignoring the proc completly.

Heroism/bloodlust btw does not change the GCD. As far as anyone can tell in game now, nothing does.

I think Efejel is right. Try setting mana spring to NONE for both cases. 0/5 and NONE are very different, and I believe the base value of it got buffed from 12->20 per tick, or 30->50 mp5, which would account for the difference between the two versions.

30->50? Where are those numbers from?

Mana spring was buffed form 12->20 mp5, the talent is still 25% which means talented it went from 15 to 25. The only addition is the t4 set bonus which adds 3mp5 to the mana spring totem. I doubt that its necessary to add an option for that.

Mana spring totem <<< BoW which made us horde people cry for 2 years!

I guess I worded my post poorly. Let's try this again...

This was buffed from 12 mana, and is now 20 mana as it says in the tooltip. However, this is every 2 seconds, so to find the value for every 5 seconds, we multiply this number by 2.5, because 2 seconds * 2.5 = 5 seconds. So this turns 12 mana/2 into 30 mana/5, and 20 mana/2 into 50 mana/5. This is where the 30->50 mp5 value comes from.

Now, Moghedien was noting an increase of dps, so if you look back at the screenshots of the spreadsheet (s)he posted, you can see that it was a mana limited fight for many rotations. If you look at the vitals in the two spreadsheets, you will note that they are the same, except for the mp5 stat, which is off by 20 mp5. This matches up with what Efejel was saying earlier, that he now defaults the value of the mana spring totem to 50 instead of 30. 50 - 30 = 20 mp5. And as it was a mana limited fight, 20 mp5 would indeed increase the DPS for the fight.

This is why I suggested to change the mana spring totem to NONE instead of 0/5, since the change to mana spring totem wouldn't affect the calculations if it was off. On hindsight, it probably would have been better to just try to explain the change.

---

Back to the new Idol:
Over the weekend, I tried several different ways of using the Idol. For raids, the way that produced the best results was:
Macro1: SF + SF Idol
Macro2: SF + New Idol
So my rotation was:
MF, Macro1x3, Macro2

This is because MF+New Idol macro giving me the extended GCD makes me lose more DPS than can possibly be gained by the proc.

For heroics, my rotation is just MF, Wx7, and again, due to the extended GCD when swapping idols, it's just better to use the new Idol full time instead of trying to swap in the 25 damage idol. I'm going to verify tonight whether the "laggy" Idol proc lets you squeeze in more spells before it fades, because even though it only lasts 10 seconds, and you should be losing 1.5 seconds due to GCD leaving 8.5 seconds, I've seen it proc anywhere between .3 to to .8 seconds after the spell is cast, which would theoretically give you 8.8 to 9.3 seconds of time to cast with the proc up.

Love the spreadsheet, but, as usual, I have a problem... resocketing almost universally with +8 int gems will net a dps increase, according to this.

Of course, I don't have Shadow Priests or Shamans selected (or an innervate, which I try to save for healers) - I don't normally get one... but is this correct when assuming I have neither? +8 int > +9 damage, +8 hit, +4 hit/5 damage, etc.? This isn't true in all of my gear, but for the most part... it seems to be close to true, according to this.

I'm also seeing my Alchemist's Stone and a Pendant of the Violet Eye as being better than... the Skull of Gul'dan.

But now I select a nontalented mana spring totem and... +9 damage is a downgrade.
5/5 Imp. totems... nope.
Get rid of the totem, and take a Shadow Priest (set it at 200)... and +9 damage is finally an upgrade over +8 int.

I have no doubt this all would change if my gear didn't suck, or if I had a shadow priest or shaman for totems... but it still feels wierd to me, so I thought I'd mention it.

Edit: But I just remembered the fight length is set at 10 minutes. Int's worth would probably go down if I were to set it lower.
And... there we go. So this is a mana issue in longer fights, it seems. Hmmm... not until I actually get the Buffs page to show 'Not During Fight' under the time until OOM does +9 damage become better than +8 int.

Edit, again: Seems to be about 4.5 minutes and longer is where +8 int becomes better.

As you said this has entirely to do with your gear level.

From experience:
< tier 4 gear = mana problems on any long fight
tier 4 gear = moderate mana problems on a long fight
tier 5 gear = not much problem with mana

It is not surprising int is better than dmg. Just wait until you see that the mp5 enchant to bracers is a dps increase over the spell damage enchant

All I can say is that if you wish to be a raiding moonkin you should probably have herbalism as a profession. Either on your main or on a lvl 70 alt. You WILL guzzle pots like no tommarow. On the 2 nights we learn't Vashj before killing her I averaged over 30 Super Mana Pots per night.

It was buffed from 12mp2 to 20mp2, not mp5. So its 50mp5 now or 100mp10 however, you wanna look at it.

I'm blowing 6 or so per attempt on Illidan, so I feel your pain. Thank god for mana injectors, they save so much space.

Hey Van... can you discuss the difference between 4/5 tier 6 and 2/5 tier 6?

Is the tier MF bonus (plus the 2 item upgrades) really a dps increase over the 10% SF damage? I'm trying to plan out my gear through MH and BT (we are 2 bosses into MH) and I'm kinda doubtful about the spending a shitton of dkp on 2 tier 6 pieces of little use until i can get the 4/5 tier 6...

lets take a high value of spell damage.
1570. a well geared druid raid buffed. With CoS and misery.
About 36% crit chance on moonfire.

Normal.
Averaging 1067 damage on dd, and 1966 on the dot over 12. 491/tick. 3033 damage over 12s. 252dps.
2pc t6.
Averaging 1067 damage on dd, and 2457 on the dot over 15. 3524 damage over 15s. 235dps.

Its a bit of an oddity. By casting moonire less, you are actaully lowering its dps over time, by applying the direct damage less often.
Additionally, the same can be said for the application of the idol of the unseen moon. Which would also have less of an uptime.
What you gain, is mana efficiency, and you are getting more damage per global cooldown, which is a dps gain per gcd. 3033 damage over 1.5 gcd is 2022dps per cast time, vs 3524 over gcd 2349dps

now, if starfire is averaging 3945 damage /w crit, and no t5 bonus.
normal mf= 3033+3945x4 over 13.5s=18813/13.5s=1393dps.
2pc t6 mf= 3524+3945x5 over 16.5s=23249/16.5s=1409dps
4pc t5 mf=3033+3945+((3945x1.1)x3)=19996/13.5s=1481dps

In the end. No, the gains arent remotely comparable to 4pc t5. esp with the idol added in.

I dont really get this.

what is hte point of a cast sequence macro? what are your gains? Manually casting the spells doesnt have a lag associtated with it that the macro cuts out.
What if FF is resisted? Haste effects on changing your uptimes? Etc. Just seems theres no advantage over just casting manually.

The benefit of T6 over T5 with the 2 piece vs 4 piece is you get a higher ranking on Gankbang other than that I haven't found any real raid benefit as of yet. I know Benita has 4 piece T6, so perhaps he could enlighten us. There are some fights where the benefit would be quite nice, ROS p2 for instance.

Horao gave me a slick idea though a couple days back, I'm gonna try and see if I can piece together a kit that'll net me 256 haste (not even sure if there is enough), or as close too as possible.

With that amount and T6 2 piece you can do a MF/SFx6 rotation.

Gonna go theorycraft so give me a few and I'll have something.

I won't take any advice from a resto druid (:

Only fight you ever get resisted on is Council, and if you get an IFF resist you just hit esc/tab and you're back to square one. Or you just hit your lil iFF keybind and it goes up.

If you're holding 1400+ dps hard casting more power to ya, but this pushed me up a nice chunk from my, R, 1, 3, 4, 3, 3 cycle. Hard casting pre patch I was averaging around 1280.

The cycle is built around 3 graces proc'ing per rotation. If you get none, it refreshes iFF about .5 seconds late. Otherwise you'll be putting it up early.