Only fight you ever get resisted on is Council, and if you get an IFF resist you just hit esc/tab and you're back to square one. Or you just hit your lil iFF keybind and it goes up.
If you're holding 1400+ dps hard casting more power to ya, but this pushed me up a nice chunk from my, R, 1, 3, 4, 3, 3 cycle. Hard casting pre patch I was averaging around 1280.
The cycle is built around 3 graces proc'ing per rotation. If you get none, it refreshes iFF about .5 seconds late. Otherwise you'll be putting it up early.
3, mouse1, g, g, g
I just dont see how one can really have issues casting on time, or something. Like I said, relying on a sequance can only limit your ability to adapt.
The thing with t5.
It scales better then t6. The only reason t6 was better was becuase the raw stats on it added up to more dps then the faster scaling t5 gained from the offset peices.
With the new items in 2.3, its possible t6 isnt the best dps at all anymore. (actaully checked and no. I get higher theoretical dps now with t5, then t6 in the "best" gear available.)
You can see what Im talking about on the spreadsheet easy.
Create a gearset with 4pc t5. Use the manual entry to add a value to any haste, crit or damage stat. The more then better. Add like 300 spell damage just to demenstrate how 4pc t5 scales better.
Then switch the 4pc t5 for 4pc t6. You'll find 4pc t5 is more dps.
I just dont see how one can really have issues casting on time, or something. Like I said, relying on a sequance can only limit your ability to adapt.
I agree -- that's a LONG sequence (~30 seconds?). How often are you standing stationary nuking a single target and doing nothing else for 30 seconds or longer? Doesn't seem like it'd be very often.
It is not surprising int is better than dmg. Just wait until you see that the mp5 enchant to bracers is a dps increase over the spell damage enchant
All I can say is that if you wish to be a raiding moonkin you should probably have herbalism as a profession. Either on your main or on a lvl 70 alt. You WILL guzzle pots like no tommarow. On the 2 nights we learn't Vashj before killing her I averaged over 30 Super Mana Pots per night.
I'm already averaging 15-30 potions per night, depending on how well things go. That's also the reason I have enchants like +12 int on my bracers instead of +15 spell damage.
It's also why I'm now an Alchemist/Herbalist and using an Alchemist's Stone.
Yeah, thought it was my gear, but thought I'd mention it anyways. Thanks for the clarification. I did change a bunch of gear in the spreadsheet, just to see if new gear would change it (mostly T4 level stuff that I'm hoping will drop soon), and int was still better than damage.
And checking right now... at T5, +8 int > +9 damage, etc. with T5 level gear. I'm not sure if I'm selecting the right gear (as far as I can tell, the gear I'm selecting is about as good as it gets for that gear level), honestly, but as far as I can tell, according to this spreadsheet... at T4, T5, and T6 levels you need a shadow priest for +10/+8 int gems to be worse than +9/12 damage gems, even if you have an Alchemist's Stone improving your mana potions.
Only time I can get +damage better than +int at any gear level is when I get a shadow priest, which is rare (if ever), and I doubt I'll be getting one. I'm not about to resocket with +int just yet... but, eh. If it works.
And checking right now... at T5, +8 int > +9 damage, etc. with T5 level gear.
Somethings wrong there. Under the settings I normally test under (my gear, 8 minute with pots and innervate) +9 dmg is 3 dps better overall than +8 int.
I think you must be doing something wrong. Are you trying to get a full wrath spam to work for 10 minutes or anything like that? Once you hit the point where MF+SF*x is better than wrath spam in dps you shouldn't be having problems with mana anymore.
Like i said, the only fight i have mana problems for is Vashj and that is only because I solo 3 of the elemental spawn points and am basically wrath spamming the entire fight. As we were learning and killing Kael most of the time i only used 1 mana pot that entire fight and saved my innervate for mages.
No JoW. We don't always get it up - sometimes we'll have it, but it's not like we have a ret pally to keep it up 100% of the time... and our holy pallies need to be healing, not meleeing. :\
No Shaman buffs, as I don't have them all the time.
No shadow priest.
Different gear... mostly T5/T6 level stuff, just for testing. I think I forgot to change to a new cloak (from Ruby Drape of the Mysticant).
5% out of the 5SR, just to account for the time I might spend standing around doing nothing.
No Innervate, I usually save it for healers, just in case...
Battle Res, as I'll usually have to.
Flask of Distilled Wisdom, just like with gems, comes out to being better than Blinding Light, Mighty Restoration, and Supreme Power.
I changed the meta from Insightful Earthstorm to Chaotic Skyfire (resocketing mostly with +12 damage, but keeping the insightful earthstorm with a couple different sockets to use it is still a downgrade).
Problem: My meta wasn't counting for the +int setup. Forgot to socket for it. It would've had even higher dps.
Maybe I'm going too extreme - socketing with 1 type of gem... but it's still wierd to me. Going OOM (according to this) causes this spreadsheet to rate +10/8 int as better than +12/9 damage for me.
Edit: I'll update the pictures in a moment with better setups - meta working, y'know?
Edit, again: Updated with better pictures... Metas are working for both and set as Insightful Earthstorm, had to leave out a couple of the gem at hand (10 int vs. 12 damage) for blue gems. It's not a huge difference, but it is a difference. Int > Damage?
I agree -- that's a LONG sequence (~30 seconds?). How often are you standing stationary nuking a single target and doing nothing else for 30 seconds or longer? Doesn't seem like it'd be very often.
Like I said its only for Illidan P1 & 2 right now, we're just getting into 3/4. For a pure T&S its working really well.
Dump a mana bar on Dr. Boomx5, then do it again with the sequence x5 if you dps doesn't go up don't use it.
Oh and to answer your question:
Najentus - reset it on the shields
Supremus - P1 do whatever you want P2
Akama - P2
Teron - Whole fight
Bloodboil - Fel Rage Phase
RoS - P1/3, I just use SF in 2
Mother - Reset if you get ported
Council - Nope
Illidan - P1/P2
Rage - Moving is minimal
Anetheron - I use the same cycle on Infernals and Ane
Kaz - I'd remove MF from it and work out a IS, SFx3, Wrath combo
Azg - Nope
Archi - I just decurse, hot, and dot on this
Vyniris doesn't have a shadow priest, doesn't have a shaman, doesn't even get to use his own innervate, AND has to battle rez. This is the formula for definitely running OOM(Although with those sort of conditions, I think something else is going wrong with the raids you go on...)
Anyhow, in any instance that you're going OOM before a fight ends, int, mp5, and maybe even spirit will always be a better choice than any of the other damage stats(hit, crit, damage). Just some rough math so you can get an idea:
Each point of +damage will give you:
Starfire: 1.32 damage each spell
Insect swarm: 0.8 damage each spell.
So for a IS SFx4, you get about 6 damage total. This rotation costs about 1500 mana. For a 10 minute fight, using 5 mana pots and 2 innervates on myself, I spend 52616 mana. This is 35 rotations, so 1 +damage gives me 210 extra damage over this 10 minute fight.
Int gives 15 mana, 0.25 damage, 0.1 mp5. Over 10 minutes, that is 27 mana total. IS and SF are roughly 10 damage per mana, so that's 270 damage already, and counting the damage contribution, is another 210/4 = 52 damage, or 322 damage total.
Spirit gives ~0.311 mp5(averaging in benefit from innervates), and 0.1 damage. Over a 10 minute fight, that is 37 mana. Total of 370 + 0.1*210 = 391 damage total, per point of spirit. Since Vyniris doesn't get to use innervate, spirit is pretty much useless for him though.
It's hard to do straight comparisons because everything changes with the duration of the fight, but if you're going OOM before the fight ends, int(and spirit, with innervate) is a better investment than damage. At the same time, if you end the fight with a lot of mana, that's also wasted damage potential that could have been better spent on +damage...
I've got a couple things I wanted to ask some more-progressed/experienced Moonkins. First, at my gear level, I seem to be straddling the line of being mana-limited during fights, tightly enough that changing one piece of gear (sometimes just an enchant or a gem) will determine whether I'm using IS in my rotation or not. How does adding IFF to the rotation affect me, efficiency-wise, if I add it in every other cycle, i.e. FF, IS, SFx4, IS, SFx4 as opposed to simply interjecting it into the rotation every time it goes down or even waiting until the start of the next cycle to cast it.
Second, I also seem to be straddling a point between hit and damage on my gear. I've always run by the idea that Hit >>>> anything else until you're Hit-capped, but recently playing with the spreadsheet I've seen that changing all of my Veiled Noble Topaz/Great Dawnstone out for Runed Living Rubies is giving me a substantial DPS increase. Is this something going screwy with the spreadsheet, or are Hit and Damage so close together that 9 damage will outweigh 8 hit?
I've got a couple things I wanted to ask some more-progressed/experienced Moonkins. First, at my gear level, I seem to be straddling the line of being mana-limited during fights, tightly enough that changing one piece of gear (sometimes just an enchant or a gem) will determine whether I'm using IS in my rotation or not. How does adding IFF to the rotation affect me, efficiency-wise, if I add it in every other cycle, i.e. FF, IS, SFx4, IS, SFx4 as opposed to simply interjecting it into the rotation every time it goes down or even waiting until the start of the next cycle to cast it.
Second, I also seem to be straddling a point between hit and damage on my gear. I've always run by the idea that Hit >>>> anything else until you're Hit-capped, but recently playing with the spreadsheet I've seen that changing all of my Veiled Noble Topaz/Great Dawnstone out for Runed Living Rubies is giving me a substantial DPS increase. Is this something going screwy with the spreadsheet, or are Hit and Damage so close together that 9 damage will outweigh 8 hit?
Currently i don't use IFF. I don't use sequences all that much because i tend to find it makes me into a mindless zombie who can't react to changing situations. So the way I would interweave IFF (and the way i currently do FoN) is to insert it instead of the 4th moonfire when it is needed.
IE: MF - SFx4 turns into MF - SF x3 - IFF or MF - SFx3 - FoN...
This is especially good if you are using the moonfire idol because that 4th SF won't be getting the buff anyhow. Neither IFF or FoN are critical to keep up IMHO so if it drops in a strange time I don't mind waiting to re-up it.
MF, SF (equip: SF idol before hit) SF, SF, SF/FoN/IFF (equip MF idol)
is the sequence I will be using when I start to use IFF in the near future.
Hit should be better than any other stat until the hit cap... I used to have troubles with adding hit rating not doing anything until i realized that the shaman totem was on. Once i turned that off i was able to add another 3% of hit rating which upped my dps appropriately.
Hit should be better than any other stat until the hit cap... I used to have troubles with adding hit rating not doing anything until i realized that the shaman totem was on. Once i turned that off i was able to add another 3% of hit rating which upped my dps appropriately.
No totem, no Draenei racial. I made sure to tick those off before inputting my gear, as I can never be sure I'll have them. My typical 25-man group is me and 2-4 mages, 0-2 warlocks. We have no guild Spriest, and no elemental shammies.
Also, with the change to the Moonfire idol coming in the next patch, I don't plan on using it until I see a lot more testing. I currently run IS, SFx4, with IFF thrown in on the next rotation after it drops, and FoN whenever it's up.
Idol of the Unseen Moon: This item now has a 30 second cooldown on being triggered.
QQQQQQQQQQQ. I want my 20 badges back. I don't understand why they nerfed it. I really don't. I'd advise anyone from spending badges on this and get another piece of heroic badges gear instead. All that time testing it out wasted!
As far as hit goes, hit is good, but I wouldn't go so far as saying it's >>>>> damage. Hit is about worth 1.15 to 1.2 damage, but if you remember that spell damage only costs 0.85 itemization points, the same amount of itemization points will give you roughly the same improvement. However, I'm really not sure how you're getting a "significant DPS increase." I'd expect two roughly equivalent DPS values.
I'd definitely advise against using MF if you don't have a shadow priest. Of course towards the end of a fight when you see you have a lot of spare mana, you can always do a IS MF SFx3 rotation.
As far as hit goes, hit is good, but I wouldn't go so far as saying it's >>>>> damage. Hit is about worth 1.15 to 1.2 damage, but if you remember that spell damage only costs 0.85 itemization points, the same amount of itemization points will give you roughly the same improvement. However, I'm really not sure how you're getting a "significant DPS increase." I'd expect two roughly equivalent DPS values.
I'd definitely advise against using MF if you don't have a shadow priest. Of course towards the end of a fight when you see you have a lot of spare mana, you can always do a IS MF SFx3 rotation.
Well, I like to min/max a ton, probably more than I should, so my significant increase may not actually be. Maybe 2 or 3 DPS out of 800, but given per gem. I can increase my DPS by about 15-20 just by regemming to all damage. I just expected the exact opposite.
And yeah, I haven't touched MF in about 2 months, ever since I found this spreadsheet.
The cooldown related with the moonfire idol was somewhat expected, in the end. Mostly because idol switching, i suppose (could be related to the slot, which is a weapon instead of a equipment slot), just imagine you could swap around trinkets during a fight. I just wonder, if the 30s CD would push 2 pieces T6 a little bit, with their 15s moonfire duration, whereas otherwise you would only be able to swap in the idol every 36s.
Efejel! I found a small problem! As we all know, your spell must hit in order to crit, unlike melee attacks. Currently the way it is being calculated on the spreadsheet slightly favors crit and gives less credit to hit.
Example:
Let's say I have 30%(26% character sheet) crit chance for Starfire, and 7% hit rating.
What I should have is:
90% chance for a spell to land. 30% of those are crits.
The totaly amount of crits is then 90% * 30% = 27%.
So 27% crits, 63% normal hits.
The spreadsheet gives:
30% crits, 60% normal hits.
To correct this, I went in and added a hit modifier to each of the crit% grids. So they look like this now
Starfire: =MIN(0.99,(Buffed_Crit+Focused_Starlight*0.02+((Tr64)*0.05))*(Hit_Pen+Sf_h))
Wrath: =MIN(0.99,(Buffed_Crit+Focused_Starlight*0.02)*(Hit_Pen+W_h))
Moonfire: =MIN(0.99,(Buffed_Crit+Imp_MF*0.05)*(Hit_Pen+Mf_h))
IS doesn't crit so the hit calculation is correct.
---
Dioneirra:
The 30 second cooldown makes 2pcT6 utilize the moonfire idol better, but it's still a downgrade from right now(not to mention 2pcT6 actually lowers your DPS).
---
Adoriele:
I set up another spreadsheet(with the above changes) matching roughly your gear, and indeed it does show some minor increases in DPS when changing spell hit to spell damage gems. Roughly 0.7 or so per gem... I guess you need a bit more spell damage for spell hit to do better than spell damage(although this does gives me a a weird feeling).
Efejel! I found a small problem! As we all know, your spell must hit in order to crit, unlike melee attacks. Currently the way it is being calculated on the spreadsheet slightly favors crit and gives less credit to hit.
Example:
Let's say I have 30%(26% character sheet) crit chance for Starfire, and 7% hit rating.
What I should have is:
90% chance for a spell to land. 30% of those are crits.
The totaly amount of crits is then 90% * 30% = 27%.
So 27% crits, 63% normal hits.
Actually, I was originally in your camp on this one. But I haven't seen conclusive testing either way, and I was being browbeat by Caliane to implement it in this fashion. Maybe I'll add it as one of the options on the talents page, and let people decide for themselves whether to model a one-roll or two-roll system.
Unless, of course, there's been a definitive conclusion reached by the theory-crafting community & someone can provide a link?
EDIT: I see the 2-roll system for spells stated as a fact by Vontre in the [Mage] Sweet Informational Thread, but I'm afraid I still don't know the original source.
Last edited by Efejel : 11/22/07 at 4:46 AM.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Several weeks (maybe 2 months ago?) there was testing here that seemed to show either a 2-roll system with ~5% less crit versus a mob 3 level above you, OR a one-roll with about 15% crit depression (as in 15% of your listed crit, 30%->25.5%), but the testing was still pretty sketchy. Once I get my mage alt to level 65 I plan on doing 8-10 or more hours of AM spam to attempt to confirm what's going on, but for now I'd at least include a two-roll option.
I don't know if this has been discussed in this thread but after skimming over it I didn't find any discussion; my apologies if this is redundant.
According to the spreadsheet my best rotation is IS MF SFx3, so I wanted to test if swapping the MF idol in on the IS would be better than swapping it in on the MF since I'm not entirely convinced that having a /cast Moonfire /equip [noequipped: Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon macro works in low latency situations.
Macroing Insect Swarm and Equipping your Moonfire Idol only triggers one GCD so having an rotation that begins with IS MF will always give you the chance to proc the idol.
It's been mentioned. The main problem with this rotation is that the IS then doesn't get the benefit of additional +dmg from the proc.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Ok, sorry I only read to page 7, but here's the question:
If you are grouped with a shadowpriest and shaman for mana, in a 10 minute fight, with CoS applied... what is your preferred casting rotation? Assume you have both salvation and wisdom buffs etc.
What are your primary stats you want to go with this rotation?
Also, the talent Improved Faerie Fire: It applies to melee and ranged ... does that 'ranged' include casters? Or just hunters? Thx.
Quick question. I am raid resto. We are on Vashj. For fun I wanted to do kara and ZA and the easier 25 mans as boomkin just to mess around. I have almost no moonkin gear so I am just starting out. Is there and decent rep rewards/craftable items I can pick up while I wait for the badges to drop? Thanks for any help.
BTW, what the hell good is ap in moonkin form? All the druid staffs say they increase attack power in all forms including moonkin. Does this at all help in casting? Or is it like I assume, just for mellee?
Also, the talent Improved Faerie Fire: It applies to melee and ranged ... does that 'ranged' include casters? Or just hunters? Thx.
Ranged means ranged, means Hunters only. If it meant spellcasters, it would say + to hit with spells.
Originally Posted by fuzzynavel
Quick question. I am raid resto. We are on Vashj. For fun I wanted to do kara and ZA and the easier 25 mans as boomkin just to mess around. I have almost no moonkin gear so I am just starting out. Is there and decent rep rewards/craftable items I can pick up while I wait for the badges to drop? Thanks for any help.
BTW, what the hell good is ap in moonkin form? All the druid staffs say they increase attack power in all forms including moonkin. Does this at all help in casting? Or is it like I assume, just for mellee?
For quick and easy, you're stuck with the legs from the Mag'har for rep and the Windhawk set from leatherworking. You can also pick up the T2 look-alike set from scattered dungeons and heroics, and the bracers off Attumen (all of these are for if you prefer to stick with leather. Cloth is a little easier to get).
As for AP in moonkin, it's only good for the melee mana regen which, while a horrible idea in general, can be a decent way to recover from going OOM if you can ensure you'll be safe while doing it. With the ability to switch weapons in combat, it's a decent idea to keep a Feral AP staff/mace in your bags so you can make the most of any time you have to run in and hit things.
Quick question. I am raid resto. We are on Vashj. For fun I wanted to do kara and ZA and the easier 25 mans as boomkin just to mess around. I have almost no moonkin gear so I am just starting out. Is there and decent rep rewards/craftable items I can pick up while I wait for the badges to drop? Thanks for any help.
BTW, what the hell good is ap in moonkin form? All the druid staffs say they increase attack power in all forms including moonkin. Does this at all help in casting? Or is it like I assume, just for mellee?
Spellstrike and the other tailoring set I forgot are good starts, you need to be a tailor yourself for spellstrike tho. Other need nether. Rep rewards well, scryer gem isn't too bad for a starting dps caster because it'll help on the hit rating, lower city exalted mace or S1 arena mace starting this week, arena offhand I guess. You can also just keep the best healing pieces you have, the ones with mp5, cause with the healing changes, they're not too shabby for a starting moonkin. I know for example my primal mooncloth set is pretty decent for pewpewing, it doesn't add a lot of damage but the regen helps.
As for moonkin, the aura is what you want(5%crit spell). The whole melee thing seem pretty useless, but I guess if the boss has no AE at all, you can just go in melee range and if you run oom, just melee it to get mana back. The staves with feral ap are meant for feral specs, cat dps or bear tank. They also work in moonkin form, but don't help your casting at all.
The Spellstrike set only requires you to be a 350 tailor for the set bonus, not to wear the pants and hat.
Yeah I actually meant the other set spellfire, mix them all the time. When I'm talking of nether one it's spellstrike, and when talking about tailoring it's spellfire.
Quick question. I am raid resto. We are on Vashj. For fun I wanted to do kara and ZA and the easier 25 mans as boomkin just to mess around. I have almost no moonkin gear so I am just starting out. Is there and decent rep rewards/craftable items I can pick up while I wait for the badges to drop? Thanks for any help.
BTW, what the hell good is ap in moonkin form? All the druid staffs say they increase attack power in all forms including moonkin. Does this at all help in casting? Or is it like I assume, just for mellee?
This was an old list I made pre 2.3 so obviously some things will be different, but all the same its a very solid easy to acquire kit.
Everything in it is pre-kara as well.
Spellstrike Helm
Brooch of Heightened Potential
Mana-Etched Spaulders
Sethekk Oracle Cloak
Starry Robes of the Crescent
Veteran's Silk Cuffs
Mana-Etched Gloves
Belt of Depravity
Spellstrike Pants
Moonstrider Boots
Sparkling Arcanite Ring
Cobalt Band of Tyrigosa
Icon of the Silver Crescent
Quag's Eye
Gavel of Unearthed Secrets
Lamp of Peaceful Radiance
Gemmed and Enchanted Properly you will get this for your stat line from gear:
11/19/07, 4:36 PM
Similar Threads
