Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 22

Vauk · 11/26/07, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by lorelye

Ok, sorry I only read to page 7, but here's the question:

If you are grouped with a shadowpriest and shaman for mana, in a 10 minute fight, with CoS applied... what is your preferred casting rotation? Assume you have both salvation and wisdom buffs etc.

What are your primary stats you want to go with this rotation?

Also, the talent Improved Faerie Fire: It applies to melee and ranged ... does that 'ranged' include casters? Or just hunters? Thx.

If you aren't needed to keep IFF up.

MF - SFx4 is by far the best with all the raid buffs.

Thats for pure dps. If you need to keep IS up to help the tanks. Try IS - MF - SFx3(or 4)

Stat order should be something like:
Reach Hit Cap (most important)
Reach Int/Spi/Mp5 Cap (the point where you go out of mana just as the fight ends (i'd still plan on using pots and innervate)
Damage (damage is moderately better than crit but don't neglect it)
Crit (most good pieces have crit on them shouldn't need to stack crit more than that)
Haste (i have yet to be convinced that haste is worthwhile. Esp since it takes a ton of itempoints)

Vauk · 11/26/07, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzynavel

Quick question. I am raid resto. We are on Vashj. For fun I wanted to do kara and ZA and the easier 25 mans as boomkin just to mess around. I have almost no moonkin gear so I am just starting out. Is there and decent rep rewards/craftable items I can pick up while I wait for the badges to drop? Thanks for any help.

BTW, what the hell good is ap in moonkin form? All the druid staffs say they increase attack power in all forms including moonkin. Does this at all help in casting? Or is it like I assume, just for mellee?

Others have given you a good idea of what to look for. I have a couple tips:

1. Spellstrike is MUCH better than the leatherworking set even as a nontailor. You won't replace them until Tier 5.
2. If you have the gold to spare I really recommend grabbing Will of Edward the Odd. You won't replace it until you get the badge chest and it will allow you to get the other more important badge gear first.
3. Get Badge Bracers. Cheap AMAZING bracers. Nothing better in the game until end of BT.
4. If your raid is willing try and invest in 2 Nether Vortexes. Belt of Blasting will help you reach hit cap.
5. From there on I'd fill in with Kara.

If I had to do my gear up over again I would have taken the time to get the Icon of the Silver Crescent asap. I still don't have it and am STILL using blue trinkets

Buying the Will of Edward the Odd will help you not have that horrible choice between trinket (only a couple better trinkets in entire game) and chest piece (core piece).

Personally I didn't bother getting any tier 4 balance gearset pieces. The clothy stuff is much better.

EDIT: Don't bother getting the Spellfire set. Wrath will definitely be better dps pretty much up until 4/5 tier 5 on all but the longest boss fights (mana).

fuzzynavel · 11/26/07, 6:12 PM

thank you!

Vauk · 11/26/07, 6:49 PM

Efejel,

Just wanted to say thank you again. Also have a couple requests.

1. Can you please add applicable ZA gear.
2. Can you please disconnect the 1 hand from the off hand (my 1 hand isn't available. If I say none the one hand doesn't get added in)
3. I know it is hard to spreadsheet haste rating but could you please find someplace on the spreadsheet to show a rough estimate of its effects.

Other questions:
What is everyone's thoughts on haste?

Drbass · 11/26/07, 7:02 PM

Hey Efejel, Thanks so much for all the incredible work you've done on this spreadsheet it's amazing and it has deffinately helped me out.

I was trying to find a good point to see how long I could last in a fight but I noticed that when I changed the expected duration of fight time, all of the other numbers saying how long I could go till oom changed as well. This seemed a little off to me. I could set the expected duration over an hour and it would tell me I'm still not going to run out of mana. Just trying to figure out if this is a bug.

fuzzynavel · 11/27/07, 1:12 AM

Speak of the devil, doing a badge kara run today and the edward the odd dropped off trash.

Efejel · 11/27/07, 6:42 AM

Originally Posted by Vauk

1. Can you please add applicable ZA gear.
2. Can you please disconnect the 1 hand from the off hand (my 1 hand isn't available. If I say none the one hand doesn't get added in)
3. I know it is hard to spreadsheet haste rating but could you please find someplace on the spreadsheet to show a rough estimate of its effects.

1. Are you sure you're using the latest version? If not, can you be more specific about what's missing? I'm guessing you mean healing gear? (Not that it's illogical for healing gear to be a DPS upgrade in some cases...)
2. Hmm... I'll have to look at a way to do that without making a mess of things. Which 1-hander are you using that's missing from the sheet? (I'm guessing a healing weapon?)
3. The spreadsheet tries to estimate the effect of static haste rating, as a of a couple of releases ago. Cycle-rounding effects for the default are going to be relatively pronounced as your haste increases, though, so you're best off considering the custom cycles. And know that Nature's Grace procs are going to throw everything off completely for any cycle but pure Starfire spam.

Originally Posted by Drbass

I was trying to find a good point to see how long I could last in a fight but I noticed that when I changed the expected duration of fight time, all of the other numbers saying how long I could go till oom changed as well. This seemed a little off to me. I could set the expected duration over an hour and it would tell me I'm still not going to run out of mana. Just trying to figure out if this is a bug.

The mana return is calculated based on the specified fight duration, so there's basic regen that continues throughout (mp5, etc) as well as consumable & cooldown abilities that are calculated discretely. (So, if you change from a 1-innervate fight to a 2-innervate fight -- say, 5 -> 7 minutes -- you will see more difference in the results than you may have been expecting).

As far as times when the sheet shows you're never running out of mana, if you unhide the "Cast Cycles" sheet, you can see the cycle specific mana per second average costs. If you've got enough regen from shadow priests, innervate, consumables, BoW, etc. you will in fact never go OOM. This starts at around 500 mp5 for IS,SFx4 and climbs to over 700 for MF,Wrathx8. These costs are of course going to vary with your crit rate, haste rating, and latency.

Saraya · 11/27/07, 7:04 AM

Re: Spell Hit

Regardless of how great spell hit is, I still recommend just downloading the spreadsheet and plugging in your gear. For example:

Ashyen's Gift - Items - World of Warcraft -VS- Corruptor's Signet - Items - World of Warcraft

Unless the extra 30 sta on Ashyen's gift is going to help you survive in a fight(and it might very well), Corruptor's should be better regardless of whether or not you're at the hit cap.

---

Re: Not running out of mana

Another factor of not running out of mana lies in the "Estimated Latency" box. The default value of 0.4 causes your spell rotation to consume a significantly lower amount of mana per second. Efejel(or someone else) mentioned that doubling the value of your in game ping seems to give the most accurate result for DPS, and it seems to hold true for me.

Vauk · 11/27/07, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Saraya

Re: Spell Hit

Regardless of how great spell hit is, I still recommend just downloading the spreadsheet and plugging in your gear. For example:

Ashyen's Gift - Items - World of Warcraft -VS- Corruptor's Signet - Items - World of Warcraft

Unless the extra 30 sta on Ashyen's gift is going to help you survive in a fight(and it might very well), Corruptor's should be better regardless of whether or not you're at the hit cap.

Of course. One should always get the better item. Just like once you hit the cap damage is better than crit. That doesn't mean that a 20 damage item is better than a 30 crit rating item.

Vauk · 11/27/07, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

1. Are you sure you're using the latest version? If not, can you be more specific about what's missing? I'm guessing you mean healing gear? (Not that it's illogical for healing gear to be a DPS upgrade in some cases...)
2. Hmm... I'll have to look at a way to do that without making a mess of things. Which 1-hander are you using that's missing from the sheet? (I'm guessing a healing weapon?)
3. The spreadsheet tries to estimate the effect of static haste rating, as a of a couple of releases ago. Cycle-rounding effects for the default are going to be relatively pronounced as your haste increases, though, so you're best off considering the custom cycles. And know that Nature's Grace procs are going to throw everything off completely for any cycle but pure Starfire spam.

1. I am using 0.72gamma. I tried looking for the newest one but I couldn't find it. The other gear that would be nice is some of the healing stuff. Paticularly the hard to get dps items like Necks. There is a nice haste rating neck off of eagle boss that has dropped a couple times and I've passed cause I wasn't sure of its effectiveness.

Could you update the first post to point to any newer spreadsheets. The last time I looked it had 0.72b as the last one.

2. The 1hander I am using is Qub's Cursed Hexblade. I would assume if I do not have the most up to date spreadsheet that it already has been added.

3. Baring a better simulation of haste rating is there any theorycrafting we can do on the board to show its effectiveness next to gear with those point filled in with dmg/crit/hit?

Vandiego · 11/27/07, 2:38 PM

Efejel,

Royal Cloak of the Sunstrider's isn't listed in the newest version. I know it was there in the last one you did.

Anyone,

Does anyone have an idea on how to calculate receiving the T5 bonus from another balance druid in the raid? In other words we brought in a second balance druid for TK attunement runs last night, he kept the debuffs up while I just spammed SF.

Originally Posted by Vauk
1. I am using 0.72gamma. I tried looking for the newest one but I couldn't find it. The other gear that would be nice is some of the healing stuff. Paticularly the hard to get dps items like Necks. There is a nice haste rating neck off of eagle boss that has dropped a couple times and I've passed cause I wasn't sure of its effectiveness.

You may want to double check the version you're loading. .72b has the Loop of Cursed whatever you referred to in your statement. It's between Luminous and Hydra.

Edit: Added spaces for separation.

Dothorio · 11/27/07, 2:40 PM

The neck off of Akil'zon (Brooch of Nature's Mercy - Items - World of Warcraft) is a healing item, which is why it isn't listed.

I'm using version 0.72b and Wub's Cursed Hexblade is listed.

Vandiego · 11/27/07, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dothorio

The neck off of Akil'zon (Brooch of Nature's Mercy - Items - World of Warcraft) is a healing item, which is why it isn't listed.

I'm using version 0.72b and Wub's Cursed Hexblade is listed.

Thank you for correcting me, a simple assumption on my part.

However, healing items can be better than "designed for dps" for example:

The Botanist's Gloves of Growth (Healing) vs Grasp of the Moonkin (DPS)

If you socket the BGoG for DPS using 2x +9's

The stat comparison on BGoG is:
+6 stam
-1 int
+12 Haste
+6 Damage

A clear, albeit depressing, upgrade nonetheless.

Vauk · 11/27/07, 6:58 PM

0.72b is the latest?

Any idea where 0.72gamma came from?

Vauk · 11/27/07, 8:44 PM

Been thinking about doing some math on haste so here goes.

The upper goal is of course 1.5 second Starfire casts with both a Nature's Grace proc and Bloodlust up.

Starfire base casttime: 3 secs
With Nature's Grace Proc: 2.5 secs.

With 2.5 Second Casts: (showing the formula)
1% haste means 101 casts in 250 seconds (250 seconds / 101 casts) = 2.475 seconds per cast

To get 1.5 Second Casts: (using the formula)
250 / 1.5 = 166.666667 casts in 250 seconds

Meaning we need 66.6 OR 67% spell haste to get 1.5 second casts with Nature's Grace up.
Bloodlust is a 30% haste BUT because haste effects are multiplied that does not mean we need another 37% haste.

Instead:
167% = 130% * xxx%

or

167% / 130% = 128.5%

1% haste = 15.7 rating

therefor 

28.5% haste = 447.45 haste rating

447.45 haste rating

Allanon · 11/27/07, 11:33 PM

I was a moonkin in AQ, when they finally gave us gear (emerald dragons, lok'amir, t2.5 etc) and then in Naxx it was heal or gtfo (and there was no moonkin loot either except cloth), so i rolled resto for a while. I tanked and healed in the start of TBC and then took a break this summer. My guild is almost at Illidan now and I've gone back to moonkin since apparently moonkin dps is decent in raids these days. Problem is, it seems like 4x T5 is the thing you MUST have, and my guild rarely/never does SSC/TK anymore. So I was wondering if anyone could give some advice on which items to go for. 4part t6 will take a long time, 2part i can get fairly soon.

To sum up, if it's impossible to get 4xT5 what do you do... Go for haste items + as much t6 as you can get?

I've thrown the following gear together in the last 3 weeks or so, but I'm confused what to go for now. And with t6 and ZA, I really find it hard to believe that 4xT5 owns all??

My Armory Link

Also, the spreadsheet puts me at around 1100 dps, and since we've been short on spriests lately i go oom on some bossfights with just SF spam (often combat rez and sometimes give innerlol to healers) so my dps is usually more like 750-850 :/ I'd like to think my gear is getting ok, so what do I need to do to get over 1k dps!! Can't find any thread on the net better than this one for end-game moonkinning

Efejel · 11/28/07, 5:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vauk

0.72b is the latest?
Any idea where 0.72gamma came from?

alpha < beta < gamma (greek alphabet for pre-release versions)
a < b < c , etc. for real production releases

Always check post 1 for latest full release.

Saraya · 11/28/07, 5:48 AM

Originally Posted by Vandiego

Does anyone have an idea on how to calculate receiving the T5 bonus from another balance druid in the raid? In other words we brought in a second balance druid for TK attunement runs last night, he kept the debuffs up while I just spammed SF.

Unless you want it to show up on the spreadsheet itself, couldn't you just mulitply the value on the "Starfire only" by 1.1? Other than that, you could do Format->Sheet->Unhide Damage Calcs and modify the min and max damage on starfire, but then it'd be inaccurate if you didn't have the other balance druid.

(Wait, if there was another balance druid in 4pct5, you could use actually use T6?!)

Botanist Gloves vs Grasp of the Moonkin are also separated by 13 ilevels, so the comparison isn't thaaaat fair, but it does bring up an excellent point about healing items. Since you get 1/3 of the healing turned into damage, and healing costs about half damage in item points, you only lose about 1/3 of the damage off an equivalent item, so this is definitely something to watch out for.

Benita · 11/28/07, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by Saraya

(Wait, if there was another balance druid in 4pct5, you could use actually use T6?!)

"Increases your Starfire damage against targets afflicted with Moonfire or Insect Swarm by 10%."

Meaning it checks when you hit the enemy if you are wearing 4t5, then checks if IS or MF is on and then adds the damage. I dont think the damage bonus gets added to the dots. At least that doesnt sound like working as intended.

Benita · 11/28/07, 6:50 AM

Originally Posted by Vauk

447.45 haste rating

That should be the cap for full effectiveness. It's higher if you want to aim for 1.5sec Starfires without BL.

Also it would be good if someone can check their spellbooks on the next NG proc when they wear any haste item, but im quiet sure a while ago haste reduced the effect of NG.
The problem seems to be that NG reduces the total cast time of the spell for haste calculations (which is a bug as its not reducing it for spelldmg calculations). In the end you get 1% haste on 2.5sec cast and not 1% on the original 3sec cast and then -0.5sec reduced. Also haste has no effect on MSD proc Starfires (neither has NG).

The benefit of haste gets even more complicated if you think about haste vs. crit. Both increase damage by reducing casting time, one is also good for 1/3 of the Moonfire damage and the extra NG proc of that. Both make you go oom faster, crit is more DPM friendly. There are some statistics involved for casting cycles and crits and then add some other influences like trinkets, spell pushbacks and more.

There is a reason theres no fix spelldamage value for haste in this thread, its just changing too much on situations.

This was my educated guess for t6 raiding buffed moonkins:

Spellhit : Spelldamage : Spellcrit : Spellhaste : Int : Spi
1,5 : 1 : 0,8 : 0,5 : 0,4 : 0,1

Obviously spellhit gets obsolete after 151 as theres no talent choice there to not take Balance of Power for another dps increasing talent.
Also this is based on MF/5SF and unlimited mana. Mana problems will increase the value for Intellect and Spirit considerably.

I got no math at all to base these numbers on btw, feel free to point out obvious mistakes.

Efejel · 11/28/07, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Benita

This was my educated guess for t6 raiding buffed moonkins:

Spellhit : Spelldamage : Spellcrit : Spellhaste : Int : Spi
1,5 : 1 : 0,8 : 0,5 : 0,4 : 0,1

Hit isn't quite that good, especially at T6 level where items are saturated with it. In fact, it seems it's hard to avoid exceeding the hit cap! I think that... man, forgetting his name, one of other US male taurens who posted on offc'l US forums was correct in pointing out that if you can bump from a reliable SFx5, Mf to a SFx6, MF cycle, you're gonna see a really great boost in DPS at ~10% haste. This suggests that the value of haste is actually going to be a bit of a stair-step function--the first 155 pts netting you ~9.5% DPS increase, and the next couple of points (obviously not entirely true b/c of NG procs & latency) netting you an additional 3% or something. Int & spirit are going to scale with BoK, and mp5 is conspicuous in it's absence. But, all of this is moot, as I'm CLOSE to having a working rating estimation system built into the spreadsheet.

In fact, the very adventurous can try out the 0.80alpha (attached to this post). If anyone can figure out (Lorewander, save me!) what's going on with the buggy DPS-rating macro, I'd be very much obliged.

Vandiego · 11/28/07, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Saraya

(Wait, if there was another balance druid in 4pct5, you could use actually use T6?!)

With the gear available as Horao mentioned before, T6 will net you some "theoretically" impressive results, if you pair it up with haste gear.

I am working on a kit to attempt the 159 spell haste build, for a MF/SFx5 build, I don't think there is enough haste available to pull off a 398 haste build for a MF/SFx6 rotation.

Keep in mind you're working with 15 seconds instead of the standard 12.

Although, with the 4 piece T6, Moonkin Aura, Talents, and your favorite Ele Sham, you may be able to factor in 1 grace per rotation. So a 1 to 6 may not be that far fetched.

I'll play with the gear setups tonight.

Elisilianas · 11/29/07, 2:55 PM

All right I've been boggling my brain on this for about an hour. I'm using 72b and I'm short 6 Damage and I have .01 more crit than I'm supposed to. I've turned every single buff off and the only thing I can and what I've worked down to is that the Mask of Primal power socket bonus isn't being calculated in as a part of it. I'm not sure how to change the statement to make it work correctly but that's where I believe the issue is with mine, otherwise I have to say this really helps me out in showing people what I can add to a raid.

Efejel · 11/30/07, 3:37 PM

The stats for both Robe of Oblivion & Mask of Primal Power are WRONG on the spreadsheet. Additionally, the unbuffed mp5 was being calculated incorrectly. I'm releasing 0.72c to fix these errors (and to correct the veiled vs. potent flame spessarite text-only error).

Sstixx · 11/30/07, 4:31 PM

First of all, love the spreadsheet. Thank you for you hard work.

An enhancement request-

Not sure if this is possible with an Excel spreadsheet (or if you are inclined to add this) but I would love to see the ability to indicate which gear you have available (not just equipped), the importance you personally place on each stat, and the ability for the guide to recommend what gear you should equip.

For example- Lets say I want to reach the hit cap. Indicating +hit as top priority, the spreadsheet would recommend what gear I should equip out of what I have available to reach the hit cap while also taking into account that my #2 preference is spell damage.

I'm thinking of all those times I've swapped pieces of gear on the spreadsheet trying to figure out if combo x,y,z is better than a,b,c while still maintaining the hit cap. Could also use it to recommend maximum mana regen set, maximum mana set, etc.