The spreadsheet & most experienced Moonkin seem to be saying that T6 just isn't that worthwhile on bosses, and is (maybe?) slightly better for trash?
So which druid that has T6 is actually saying this? I find T6 much better for bosses and trash. People keep going on and on about how T5 4 piece is better, but I have yet to see any WWS reports to see this claim come to fruition.
Only fight I did poor on imo, was Najentus and that was due to myself and my group getting spines several times over which result in a lot of down time.
The issue is that 4pc t6 is "close" with stat upgrades and the like off teh actual pieces. But you cannot beat the10% dmg, thats huge, and its on every single starfire.
For you to really compare, you'd need to link those same fights, in the same gear, except 4pc t5. For the most part that looks a little better then my average dps on those fights when I'm able to full dps.
I think the best test, like for most classes, would be to link back to back Teron fights, one with t6 and one with t5.
Now t6 has some better mp5 and stam on it too, so there are reasons to take it, however I'd definatly say for any guild just starting to see t6 pieces roll in, to go ahead and pass for a bit(get t6 gloves first, cause t5 gloves suck ass). Then save your dkps or whatever you use for rings, or illidan staff, or whatever. Later, after a while when most of the major raiders, have thier t6, sure go ahead and pick it up and try it out. But I think itd be a mistake to take it from the other players for which it is a huge upgrade for.
The issue is that 4pc t6 is "close" with stat upgrades and the like off teh actual pieces. But you cannot beat the10% dmg, thats huge, and its on every single starfire.
For you to really compare, you'd need to link those same fights, in the same gear, except 4pc t5. For the most part that looks a little better then my average dps on those fights when I'm able to full dps.
I think the best test, like for most classes, would be to link back to back Teron fights, one with t6 and one with t5.
Now t6 has some better mp5 and stam on it too, so there are reasons to take it, however I'd definatly say for any guild just starting to see t6 pieces roll in, to go ahead and pass for a bit(get t6 gloves first, cause t5 gloves suck ass). Then save your dkps or whatever you use for rings, or illidan staff, or whatever. Later, after a while when most of the major raiders, have thier t6, sure go ahead and pick it up and try it out. But I think itd be a mistake to take it from the other players for which it is a huge upgrade for.
You keep saying this and have yet to prove it. I don't know if you have 4p T5 or not but I broke down your WWS and they don't even compare. All my off pieces save my weapons are Pre Hyjal so it should be a straight comparison.
While I'm on the subject of your parses, I have to say, you're the first druid I've ever seen die on Kaz. You do realize that druids can avoid mana burn by shifting to a form that doesn't have a mana bar. This isn't anything new and I never saw you go to cat or bear form, then you died. Not to mention your mana pool didn't last too long.
While I understand the merit of having 10% more damage on every starfire, assuming you're keeping your debuffs up. Which I don't do anymore. Compare my crit rates to anyone using T5, I'm anywhere from 20 to 40% ahead.
When your crit rate allows your average Starfire damage to surpass your 4p T5 damage. Its time to swap.
Since yours is the only other report I have up at the moment this is what I mean:
You casted a total of 45 Starfires, for a total of 170,474 damage, for an average damage of 3788.11
I casted a total of 1073 for a total of 4,206,465 damage, for an average damage of 3920.28
Now, this comparison isn't choice but its all we have atm. This is my average, which is somewhat skewed because it encompasses a whole raid, sometimes buffed, sometimes not, trash v boss, etc... So its not a great sample.
However, this will give you an idea of the thought process I used when deciding its time to upgrade.
Also, you'll need to consider your damage per minute, using realistic cast sequences, not the perfect MF, IS, SFx3 timer. Break down your combat log see how long its really taking you to cast one starfire to the next. I can guarantee its not 2.5 or 3.0 seconds.
It seems people forget the huge DPS boost we get from crit not only via Vengeance but also NG, and NG shines even more when we don't have to worry about rotations with IS/MF. Let's face it, not having to rely on IS or MF being up at all times is favored a lot due to sheer simplicity. As Vandiego pointed out cast sequences involving 4pc T5 bonus are far from optimal and weaving haste in (even NG procs) makes things worse.
I think 5% extra crit plus its benefits (especially on NG) plus better base stats are quite a lot better to have than the clumsy 10% increased dmg.
Don't get me wrong, 4pc T5 is very nice to have as soon as you get your hands on it and I wouldn't recommend dropping it before 4pc T6 since it actually adds a lot of damage even on top of just base stats upgrades single T6 pieces are. But at the end of the day you'll do more damage in (4+pc) T6.
As a side remark: Even with 4pc T5 being a very good bonus it's nowhere close to being as powerful as 3pc T2 used to be simply for the fact that you can't make up the huge stat and passives loss from having 4 of your major item budget slots hogged by it, whereas you could keep just 3 of the 8 T2 pieces quite easily along with T3 or whatever.
I'm sorry... I really tried to leave well enough alone but it is just too tempting.
Originally Posted by Lambach
Your rogues need to be fully hit capped, OH and MH, they are far from it. IFF would help you're raid A LOT. My raid has the top 8 or so players doing upwords of 1k dps, most of yours have maybe the top 2 doing that. You pretty much just over all don't know what your talking about man, and its very sad that you are trying to each others how to play incorrectly.
Lambach here is a direct quote from the Roguecraft 101 thread in these forums:
The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat.
The fact you try to talk like an authority about things you quite clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please point out to me how a rogue is expected to get 363 hit rating to make both MH and OH fully hit capped. The "You pretty much just over all don't know what your talking about man" part of your post is what makes it a classic. Here is a hint... if you are going to say someone else doesn't know what he is talking about, make sure that you haven't written something completely bogus and bullshit 2 sentences before.
The fact that you have linked one parse which was mediocre at best and continue to knock my guild's dps would be laughable if you weren't being such a complete hypocrite. I've linked 4 Azgalor parses all around the same dps as your guild.
The other thing that I don't understand is that even if my guild's dps was as poor as you seem to think. In a "good guild" wouldn't I get top 5 instead of top 3? Doesn't that make my point that a Moonkin can compete on dps? From the look at your parse I would be top 3 in your guild as well.
Originally Posted by Lambach
You will NEVER beat a good destro lock, fire mage, or melee player in a straight dps fight if you are both in about equal gear. Its mathmaticallly impossible. They have better talent trees, better mana regen, and tons of other abilities stacked in their favor.
Originally Posted by Lambach
Hopefully we are slowly getting a slightly better reputation, because we do have manythings that we bring to a raid, but unfortunatly players like Vauk spend their time rolling that in the mud.
I am trying to understand your reasoning behind this statement. Technically it is right because under ideal circumstances with everyone geared to the max (IE: a mage full tier 6, a moonkin 4/5 t5 plus tier 6 everything else) and 2 players of the same skill then yes a mage wins. However that requires full min/maxing that just isn't realistic under ordinary circumstances. Until that point though there is absolutely nothing holding Moonkins back from at least competing with the classes you mention. As with everything they will be better on some bosses and we will be better at some.
The reason I am trying to understand your statement is that "Hopefully we are slowly getting a slightly better reputation" and <sarcasm>Moonkins can't compete with dps</sarcasm> don't belong in the same sentence. It highlights your hypocrisy that you can make airs about bringing moonkin's reputation arround and then in the same post bash us. Yes we are hybrids, yes we can buff, YES WE CAN DO ENOUGH DAMAGE TO JUSTIFY OUR RAID SPOT as something other than a glorified buffer.
In conclusion,
You have seemed to have conceded that I am a good dpser. My guild seems to be at least the equivalent to your guild in dps and even if they aren't I would still easily be top 5 in your guilds dps. Meaning a Moonkin druid CAN compete with destro locks and mages. Your talk about not knowing what I am talking about shows your hypocrisy and maybe instead of knocking what I write as the ravings of a lunatic "epeen" dpswhore you can go crawl back under whatever rock you were hiding under on "Cenarion Circle". ROFL.
In this Supremus parse, you cast Starfire (a 2.5 or 3.0 second spell, depending on Nature's Grace) 94 times. The Warlock below you cast Shadow Bolt (a 2.5 second spell) 69 times. I think the main thing that this parse shows is that the Warlock is really bad, or that you're really good. Either way, the reason you're beating people is because you're significantly outplaying them, either due to incompetence on their part or extreme skill on yours.
I didn't look through the other parses, but if that's an indicator of how you play in relation to your other DPSers, that's a big factor of why you're placing so high on your meters.
Right you are...
Personally I don't think it is a lack/abundance of skill rather how hard we were trying. I have to admit that I was pretty riled up by certain posts on this forum so I was probably 100% attention rather than thier 95% attention.
Anyone who has ever done Supremus knows what a bitch it is to caster dps him. Trying hard versus normal trying probably accounts for the disparity.
While I'm on the subject of your parses, I have to say, you're the first druid I've ever seen die on Kaz. You do realize that druids can avoid mana burn by shifting to a form that doesn't have a mana bar. This isn't anything new and I never saw you go to cat or bear form, then you died. Not to mention your mana pool didn't last too long.
Ok, I'm afk to go kill my raid leader. I in fact did not realize that I could do that and stupidly took the advice of my raid leader. I blame him, rofl.
Meh learn something new everyday.
Maybe we can move the thread away from Lambach's meandering rules on how to play moonkin and back towards what it was meant for. Theorycrafting moonkins.
I am interested in the relationships between t5 bonus and t6 stats. Unlike others I would like some more discussion about it before writing a blanket statement that is more appropriate for the official wow forums.
Ok, I'm afk to go kill my raid leader. I in fact did not realize that I could do that and stupidly took the advice of my raid leader. I blame him, rofl.
.
I was referring to Lambach actually I didn't break down your parses. Kind of ironic if you ask me. But seriously how could you not know that being in a feral form prevents mana drained? Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled? Or that it breaks polymorph effects?
Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled?
Isn't it more specifically shapeshifting to a feral form? I'm pretty sure I've been MC'ed in Moonkin, but I may be thinking of boss abilities that break rule rather than player MCs.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
I was referring to Lambach actually I didn't break down your parses. Kind of ironic if you ask me. But seriously how could you not know that being in a feral form prevents mana drained? Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled? Or that it breaks polymorph effects?
You can be MCed by mobs just fine even in shapeshifting forms. I get MCed quite often in tree form, have been in cat/bear, I'll assume it's the same for moonkins. It does prevent mana burning/draining and makes you immune to sheep tho.
I was referring to Lambach actually I didn't break down your parses. Kind of ironic if you ask me. But seriously how could you not know that being in a feral form prevents mana drained? Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled? Or that it breaks polymorph effects?
Of course, I took the advice of my uninformed Raid Leader who thought that if you missed timed one of them you'd "blow up" by going OOM when you switch. Should have just tested it. heh.
My first post, first off let me say thanks, this spreadsheet is very cool. Guildmate of mine got a new pair of leather casting leggings from the timed event in ZA "Elunite Imbued Leggings". I dont think they are in the spreadsheet as of yet, nor do i see the loot on any site excep t on wowwiki
Hey guys the mages and shamans both have nice stat to dps breakdowns for different levels of gear and one of my friends is looking to try out Moonkin and is looking for something along the same lines.
Like 1 int = 1 dps
1 damage = 1.5 dps
1 crit rating = .5 dps
I know the numbers scale and change at different gear levels but some general ideas on the value of the stats in relation to each other and the value of the stats to dps would be a great help thanks.
I also got the Elunite Imbued Leggings in Zul'Aman and was taken totally by surprise seeing them in the chest, since I'd been thorough about making lists of all items of interest for all specs. Nobody had them in Atlas Loot, and they weren't on wowhead, and group members enjoyed joking about a world first while being pretty confident it was at least a server first. Somebody did find them on another site (thottbot I think) with a note that they'd dropped for somebody earlier that day.
This of course came about a week after I'd finally given in, not seeing moonkin pants on my horizon unless I took a second pair of t5 legs (not happening) or started doing arenas (with a long way to go), and crafted (and gemmed and enchanted) spellstrike pants. I equipped them, soulbinding that 1500g or so, but hadn't yet raided with them.
It's also a tough spot because the [Elunite Imbued Leggings] aren't strictly better than [Spellstrike Pants] in pure dps. I'll probably use them in many cases for the extra armor and stamina, but I expect to keep both around for a while, as if my bags and bank weren't already stuffed.
In case it takes a while for that item link to go live, I'll come back and provide the stats....
Elunite Imbued Leggings
353 armor
30 sta
40 int
(r), (y), (b): 2 m/5
31 spell crit rating
46 damage/healing
So, assuming Blessing of Kings and talents for 25% int -> dmg and 10% int -> m/5, and canceling the socket bonuses, that's a gain of 985 armor in moonkin form, 132 health, 528 mana, 5.6 m/5, 8.8 dmg, and 5 crit, at a cost of 22 hit.
(edited: I forgot Dreamstate the first time.)
Isn't it more specifically shapeshifting to a feral form? I'm pretty sure I've been MC'ed in Moonkin, but I may be thinking of boss abilities that break rule rather than player MCs.
@Efejel: Yes during the cast you SS to a feral form to prevent being MC'd.
@Pyros: This is only in PVP. But you raise a good point though. This is why I never use Moonkin form on P4 of Kael. Not being able to be polyed can be a very bad thing. As I cycloned our MT once. It was a wipe, kind of funny, but annoying all the same.
...bosses get to break rules whenever the devs want them to. ...
Unless that card gets played susceptibility to certain abilities depends on which kind of form you shift into: Namely
moonkin count as humanoid (caster form obviously is humanoid, too),
bear, cat, and travel forms count as beast (flightform as well probably),
and last but not least tree of life as elemental.
So it depends on which kind the CC ability is defined to work on and all shifted forms explicitly are immune to polymorph.
So trees get banished, cats scare beast'ed etc.
Mana burn doesn't look at that, it just needs a mana bar to work, so since we plain lose our real mana bar in bear/cat it can't touch us then (the mana bar some addons produce isn't visible to an NPC or player after all).
And it's enough to shift just before an ability lands.
Last edited by Gwynthan : 01/14/08 at 1:52 PM.
Reason: failure at interpreting monospaced tables
The formatting didn't come out right. If you work out where each X and O should be, everything is correct, it just didn't come out properly in the quote box he made.
I am a moderately T5-geared Rogue using a subpar PvP mainhand. In my typical party, with normal FF up, the Rogue Gear Sheet reads my DPS as 1491. With Imp FF toggled on, it reads 1526. That's 35 DPS for me alone. In our raids, my guild typically also has a DPS Warrior, a Feral Druid, 2 Hunters, an Enhancement Shaman, and another Rogue. I'm not going to dig up their spreadsheets, but lets be honest about the value of Imp FF: It is a lot of raid DPS. I understand there are harsh sustainability, threat, or damage sacrifices that have to be made to pick it up, but when I plug a Druid into the Balance spreadsheet with my same gear level (4-pc T5) and optimal party, and take 3 points out of Moonfury to pick up Imp FF, he only loses 88 DPS -- I'm pretty sure I can say that's a raid DPS increase.
If you have to justify your raid slot based on personal DPS, talk to your guild. If your objective is the highest raid DPS possible -- the number that kills bosses -- spec Imp FF.
Also, I dunno if you guys noticed, Insect Swarm makes the boss miss 2% more. Some fights, this could be unnecessary. Some fights this could be critical. Taking a slight DPS hit for an important raid debuff is par for the course for every spec in the game, except us bastard Rogues
I just wanted to say thanks for putting this spreadsheet together! I am normally resto. It has been a huge help for me in adjusting my offspec set and figuring out which of my pieces were garbage and which were not.
We killed Illidan the first time a couple of weeks ago and are doing 'alt runs' on off days, starting the game over til Sunwell is out on PTR. I decided i wanted to go Boomkin for the runs instead of bringing an alt, and this spreadsheet has helped me prepare extremely well for it. The WWS parses posted by various people in this thread have been a great help as well. I learned a shitload.
If you have to justify your raid slot based on personal DPS, your raid leaders don't know crap. If your objective is the highest raid DPS possible -- the number that kills bosses -- spec Imp FF.
Also, I dunno if you guys noticed, Insect Swarm makes the boss miss 2% more. Some fights, this could be unnecessary. Some fights this could be critical. Taking a slight DPS hit for an important raid debuff is par for the course for every spec in the game, except us bastard Rogues
I shortened it up because I don't like linking long quotes. Anyhow, if you could please tell me the amount of melee misses you get on a boss that aren't dodged or parried. If you could link me your WWS reports.
The reason I'm asking is simply because I broke down our last fight for all our melee and hunters. It seems the only thing truly having an issue with misses are the hunters pets. If you look at it as a whole adding 1 or 2 white hits per person at the most seems a bit trite. Especially when I would be giving up points in subtlety as threat is a very serious problem late in the game.
I understand the infinite pursuit to do more raid dps, but this is a game and everyone enjoys a different play style. Both sides have very credible points and there isn't a right or wrong answer when playing a video game when enjoyment is concerned (which is the whole point right?)
Now, my guild has vashj down and we are gunning for vael. I'm excited to start BT/MH and haven't done a whole lot of research on the content/gear of it all. I'm curious if there is any research anyone has done or knows of regarding a hierarchy of gear to take. Something all boomkin could use when a piece of loot drops in making a decision on whether to bid on it. If I can help it, i'd rather not take a sidegrade if another class could benefit more from it. I'm aware some of it all depends on where your current gear level is at, but a lot of class forums use an EP rating system of some kind to rate the upgrade. I am unfamiliar with this system or where to look for such a list of what gear is better over what. Anyone have ideas?
I understand the infinite pursuit to do more raid dps, but this is a game and everyone enjoys a different play style.
That's not the purpose of this forum. The theorycrafting, progression-based contingent of Balance Druids seems to have dismissed IFF as a responsibility. That's a mistake.
01/12/08, 12:22 PM
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