Yes, you can train max rank IS any time you have the talent. Otherwise respeccing even once would take away the ability to ever use the spell.

Well, technically you can lock yourself out of Growl and Maul if you skip the Bear Form quest, but train Dire Bear Form, as they are are granted at the end of the quest, but that's a rather special case in all senses of the word.

Trinkets are discussed at more than one point in this thread, the search function should help you there. Some trinkets cannot be theorycrafted in a spreadsheet as their mechanics are sometimes very complicated when you try to boil it down to an equasion. You would have to guess its average spelldamage value or dps increase and add it manually.

The Wrath card wasnt mentioned i think and for a good reason. If you ever exceed 15% crit its worse for pve than any reputation reward, +healing trinket (in 2.3) or 5 man drop you can find. Im not sure you can have less than 15% crit as a moonkin even in green items.

First of all, thanks for the feedback! It brings up some other questions though .

I would expect that mages don't really need that shadow priest (they have other ways to get more mana), and Moonkin does. Which class benefits mostly from 5% extra crit? if it's the lock then should a group like balancedruid, spriest, elemshaman, lock, lock not be best? Or do mages get much more out of the elemshaman buffs then a lock does?


How so? I see myself as a mage without the CC capacity of Sheeping but with a 5% crit aura. I DPS as much or more than a mage. So the difference between putting a mage or a moonkin in the group you mentioned, is that the other 4 people in the group (2 mages, a shaman and a spriest) get 5% extra crit or not. I would say that the moonkin is the better choice then? I'd like to understand how you come to the conclusion that a group of 5 with 3 mages + Shadow + Elem might be the better group of 5.


Hmm? Haste doesn't effect MF, Wrath or SF? How so?

Yes, IS, MF and Wrath I understand. SF not though, and since it is our main dps spell in raids.. .

Moonkin have access to relatively few spell rotations. Thus, we're somewhat limited in our ability to make use of the shadow priest's mana. Mages, on the other hand, have many rotations they can use, including what I understand to be the incredibly inefficient but high-DPS Arcane Blast "spam" rotation.

For example, Vontre's Mage Spreadsheet (yes, I know, I'm violating my own rules here by directly comparing spreadsheets) is showing an Arcane spec mage spamming AB, with Elem Shaman buffs, is capable of about 1825 DPS (probably more if someone who knew what they were doing did the configuration), but can sustain it for only about 1 min 30 sec without the mana of a shadow priest. What I've seen in terms of theoretical max Moonkin DPS is still significantly behind that, probably more so than can be made up by the 5% crit for 2x Mages, and 1 each Elem Shammy & Shadow Priest.

Bear in mind I'm not saying there's no reason to bring a Moonkin over a mage; innervate for a shadow priest, battle rez, and--if appropriate for your guild's needs--imp FF, are all good reasons that together (especially the battle rez) can equal more DPS in the long run.

And, as I said, the overall better raid configuration is probably to have at least one of your 3 mages spec away from AB spam and to stick them somewhere else, like in a spare spot in a group with a Resto Shaman or a BM hunter.

Mages do make great use of spreists. While they do have better dpm then a balance druid as fire/ice. Arcane mages have higher mana burn.
Spriests mana return is near worthless for a lock.
Elem shaman/druid Crit is worthless for the spriest.

We are talking synergies.
Shaman, druid buff each other very well. Locks get buffs from shaman and druid very well. Everyones happy.

Everyone loves shaman. But only mages/druids/destro locks love elem shaman.

Spreist/resto shaman benefit each other perfectly well. Then the mages get the 101damage, and uber mana regen.
Mages certainly could benefit from balance druid and elem shaman as well. Its the spriest that doesnt.



You misread.

haste effects SF. (Wrath on mobility fights thats very very very situationaly.)
Haste does not effect Wrath sustained dps, Insect swarm, or moonfire.

Crit effects wrath, starfire, moonfire.

Tublade,

Large portions of what we're talking about here are going to be very dependent on exactly what group make-ups your raid generally uses, the specs of the people involved, and both individual levels & overall levels of gear progression.

I don't begin to know everything about all of the other caster classes, but from my understanding there are certain break-points at which Arcane (2 pc. T5) for mages and Destruction (I believe this is definately about overall gear level) for 'locks both gain huge ground on the other popular specs.

And don't necessarily assume the Shadow Priests are happy that you're grouped together because you're helping them; they might instead be happy to be helping you.

Shadow priests benefit minimally from crit because the majority of their damage is from dots. They love being in my group though because when we're grouped they get priority on my Innervate, hehe. With a good shadow priest in your group you'll usually get better returns (raid DPS-wise, which is what actually matters) by giving them the innervate. I'm able to maintain an IS/MF/SFx3 rotation for the duration of most fights now without going OOM. Being a leatherworker it also allows me to use haste drums rather than the mana ones--mini-bloodlust every 2 min helps the shadow priest too!

As far as group composition, it comes down to theorycraft versus reality. In theory a third Mage may outperform a Moonkin + Aura to the other four in a caster group, but it depends much more on the actual performance of the players involved. If the Moonkin is outperforming a mage, I'd certainly hope they get preference for the shadow priest group.

Hopefully what will be happening is your raid leader will pay attention to the actual numbers that players are producing rather than the theoretical class maximum. Our raid lead has the five top caster DPS in the Caster Group o' Doom (Arcane Mage, Destro Lock, Ele Shaman, Moonkin, Spriest) and the remaining casters in a second group. The CGoD is full of people who make full use of consumables, intelligent rotations, and generally theorycraft quite a bit. The second group... not so much.
With our current setup we've literally reduced kill times for some bosses by a full minute. Some of it is gear improving, but not that drastically much.

v0.72b
-Added [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond] / Removed [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
-Corrected socket bonus on [Illidari Shoulderpads]
-Added [The Horseman's Signet Ring]

Now available.

P.S.-Please let me know if the issue with Super Mana Pots is still present. Seemed to be working for me.

Damn. No wonder I missed it the first time. Forgetting to select "Usable by: Druid" from wowhead search FTL.

I mean... I don't know what you're talking about.

>.>

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