I agreed with you that IFF is better for the raid. I believe the boomkin several posts up agreed as well. However, it is a game intended to be fun, and you telling what another person you don't know what he has to do is nuts. Besides, anyone that is hardcore enough for that sort of philosophy to apply would have already downed Illidan by now.

For me, fun is about beating bosses.

Having 3/3 IFF is a distinct advantage for our entire physical DPS corps along with a TPS increase for our tanks (and therefore a raid DPS increase). These things all help kill a boss in a unique way that no other class can. I find that "fun".

You seem to be on the wrong forum if you feel this way.

Yeah its hard to find a good resource for this. Your priority should be 4x T5, something that is impossible for many to get who rerolled moonkin in progressed guilds, and get the random cloth drops like boots/bracer/belt and some decent rings if you can. If that's gonna take awhile get as much from badges as you can. The gloves own especially much imo. The items that I'm waiting for along with probably most other raiding moonkins are Illidan staff/trinket/head, a couple ZA items (new cape, trinket) and the damn RoS boots that never drop.

Anyway my advice is to look at what drops you have access to on your loot addon and just make a list, plug them into the spreadsheet and order them by dps increase. Somebody needs to update druidwiki or the forums with a good best-worst item/slot list that includes BT/MH, because armory is pretty useless...

here is the only gear list i've seen: The Druid Wiki � Balance Druid Equipment List (BC edition)

edit: dont forget you need 151 hit with 2/2 balance of power and no elem shammy

You must be looking at a different raid than I.
Looking at your WWS -> Kaz'rogal kill.
1x Enh. Shaman
2x Rogue
1x Fury Warrior
2x Hunter pet's
1x Tank
All of these players would benefit fully from IFF.

I calculated approximately 120 DPS worth of white attacks missed from not taking up IFF.
This does not include extra dps from higher tank threat, and dps from missed procs and rage gains.

Honestly, if you are threat capped. Subtlety is probably your biggest dps increasing talent, it would be silly to drop points from subtlety to put into IFF where you have other possible talents to drop.

Points can possible be dropped from any tier 5+ balance talents or intensity.
If your not already chain potting, you can theoretically drop mana talents and lose little to no dps at all. (increased tank threat vs IFF every 40 seconds).

Did you factor in the 4-5% DPS he loses by keeping FF up on the mob, regardless of Imp or not, vs. allowing the Feral to do it on spare GCDs mana free?

Realistically there are about 100 other variables other than IFF that can affect a player dps. Looking at two seperate encounters of the same boss, one with and one without IFF will tell you very little. Just refuting how you claim 3% hit is "just 1-2 white hits", spreading misinformation like it is fact is just not on in a "class mechanics forums".

If your tank is naturally hit capped, then he is probably wearing his threat gear.
He's sacrificing his survivability for hit, whereas it's probably a much better option for you to sacrificng a little dps for his threat.

FF =~ 1 gcd (or 1.5 seconds) every 40 seconds.
3.75% of "dps time" wasted on iFF. (assuming you time it perfectly, realistically you might reapply earlier or later depending on how you fit iFF into your rotation)

Using the default settings on your spreadsheet, I set a Balance Druid up with equal ilvl gear to myself, tweaking slots to be a bit more fair: T5 4-piece, T4 gloves, T5 trinkets, T5 weapon, Kara boots/neck, T6 belt. The DPS sheet reads 1310 DPS. Taking Dreamstate to 0/3 OR Moonglow to 0/3 results in no DPS loss whatsoever, as the optimal cycle is sustainable for over 10 minutes. I can understand not wanting to give up sustainability -- don't want to be helpless if Shadow Priest dies, don't want to pot for farm content, etc -- so I looked into DPS talents. Losing 1 point out of Moonfury and 2 points out of Balance of Power seems to be the best we can do, taking us down to 1242 DPS. Now we take that number and we reduce it by 5% to account for FF uptime. We reach 1179 DPS. This is a loss of 131 DPS.

Edit: This is all rewritten.

I goofed the value of Imp FF by double-applying Faerie Fire in the Rogue Spreadsheet. Here's some more-accurate numbers. The 3% hit value is worth 35 DPS (a far cry from the previously-stated 90, I'll edit that) to myself. My typical raid runs an Enhancement Shaman, 2x Rogues, 1 DPS Warriors, 2x Hunters, one Feral Druid. That means 70 DPS for us Rogues, ~20 DPS for the Hunters (fluctuates somewhat with who's BM). That's 90 DPS, a raid DPS deficit of 41 DPS versus the Moonkin just doing the damage themselves, with a Feral Druid, an Enhancement Shaman, and a DPS Warrior unaccounted for, plus the aggro of the MT. None of that includes anyone optimizing their gear for the 3% hit.

Aldriana's guess is ~200 DPS in a 25-man raid and about a 4% threat increase for the MT.

Hi again. I am looking for some help deciding where to spend my badges. On our 2nd Kael kill recently I was lucky enough to get the Cloak and the T5 Chest. We are now moving on into Hyjal/BT. Here is my full gearset atm (slots I am looking for upgrades marked with a *):

[Nordrassil Headpiece] - [Veiled Noble Topaz] + [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]
[Adornment of Stolen Souls]*
[Nordrassil Wrath-Mantle] - [Veiled Noble Topaz] + [Glowing Nightseye]
[Royal Cloak of the Sunstriders]
[Nordrassil Chestpiece] - [Runed Living Ruby]x3
[Crystalweave Bracers]* - [Runed Ornate Ruby]
[Gauntlets of Malorne]*
[Belt of Blasting] - [Veiled Noble Topaz] + [Glowing Nightseye]
[Nordrassil Wrath-Kilt] - [Rune Covered Chrysoprase]
[Boots of Foretelling]* - [Runed Living Ruby]x2
[Signet of Ancient Magics] - [Runed Living Ruby]
[Band of Eternity] - Friendly Caster Version
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] - [Alchemist's Stone] for mana intensive fights, [Scryer's Bloodgem] when I don't have an elemental shaman, [Wushoolay's Charm of Nature] for trash/burst fights
[Icon of the Silver Crescent]
[Amani Punisher]
[Fetish of the Primal Gods]

So I am trying to decide what to go for. For gloves I can get either [Studious Wraps] or [Grasp of the Moonkin]. For bracers I could get either [Runed Spell-cuffs] or [Armwraps of the Kaldorei Protector]. Or I could upgrade my boots first to [Moon-walkers]. Or I could get [Battlemaster's Audacity]. Do I want to focus on regular spelldamage/crit/hit or try to get +spell haste in all my non T5 slots? I also have about 2k arena points to burn, but I could only use the gloves with outt breaking my 4 piece, and I already have the S1 gloves.

I am also trying to avoid getting an upgrade that is going to be replaced by moonkin drops that will be defaulted to me anyway (Bracers and Boots from RoS, and the Belt from Kaz'Rogal). Is it worth upgrading my boots or bracers when we will probably be at RoS relatively soon (how long should I expect it to take us to get there with us starting BT this week basically)? Are the leather drops from RoS even any better than these options?

Also with 4 pc T5 does crit become more valuable? should I switch my [Veiled Noble Topaz]s to [Potent Noble Topaz]s? And is it worth matching socket bonuses on the T5 Chest/T5 Legs/T5 Shoulders/Belt of Blasting?

Finally, now that I am unlikely to have a chance at the neck from Kael, what are my options for upgrading the neck?

I am sorry Bluefish. I know you mean well but something is wrong with your math/the spreadsheets. No moonkin in his right mind would ever raid without 3/3 Moonglow and 3/3 Dreamstate and the spreadsheet is just plain WRONG if it thinks a moonkin in the gear you describe can keep a good rotation going for 10 mins without those 2.

I've done some testing myself over the last couple days. Taking a point out of FoN and 2 out of Subelty to get 3/3 IFF.

The only thing I can say from my empirical experiments is that my DPS craters. I don't disagree that IFF is probably a 100 to 200 DPS increase over the raid. It is quite frankly an amazing buff. My point has always been that while it is amazing, in order for a moonkin to be considered a main dpser he can't (and doesn't need to) take it.

When my dps goes from 1100 down below 1000 I may not be losing as much as melee would gain from IFF but the raid loses a main dpser.

Another thing to take into account is the fights you encounter. On the bosses we work on so far Archimonde is the only one where buffind the melee is critical. I bit the bullet and got IFF for our Archimonde learning. For every other boss we have on farm atm ranged dps is extremely significant (and sometimes overshadows melee dps, Azgalor/Supremus anyone?) for those fights it isn't nearly as good of a buff.



I have never said IFF wasn't a good debuff. I just dislike people who say it is essential.

I think it's probably based on 250 shadow priest mp5, along with full mana buffs--BoW, BoK, Mana Spring, potion consumption.

Whether or not you have a Shadow priest that can sustain 1000+ DPS for 10 minutes is a good question.

Sorry Efejel, didn't mean to knock the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is great... the user on the other hand...

In my experience none of the shadow priests I have been around can average 1k dps at all so far, let alone for 10 minutes. I shudder to think about raiding without the talents the previous poster mentioned.

This quote makes 0 sense. Raid DPS kills bosses. Personal DPS only matters as a component of raid DPS, or in fights where you have to split DPS between multiple targets, of which TBC features...Hyjal trash?

If the spreadsheet's sustainability model is broken, that's not my problem.

I dug up our Shadow Priest's WWS for her last Tidewalker, she sustained 975 DPS for 7-8 minutes.

Another question. With T5 4 pc bonus, if there is another moonkin in the raid putting up MF/IS, is Starfire spam the best DPS? Is it still beneficial to drop my own dots as well (and just not have to be as careful in refreshing/deciding whether to squeeze that last SF in).

Yes, if you trust the other moonkin to keep MF/IS up then SF spam is the way to go. It isn't beneficial to keep you dots up and they will end up taking debuff spots that can be use for other things.

Yah... that statement doesn't make much sense

There are a variety of reasons why me losing that much dps is bad some of which are:
Melee survivability compared to a ranged caster with a shit ton of armor.
Movement fights for ranged versus melee.
Fights with more than one target.

I have never said that my DPS is more important than raid DPS other. Heck I actually respeced IFF for Archimonde. That particular statement was just made to point out the fact that I lose a huge chunk of dps and there are a variety of fights where that is a bad thing.

Getting the grasp really depends on if you are going to be getting into SSC anything soon and if you have a chance on tier 5 gloves. If you are going to progress on then just wear your T4 until you get a chance at T5 loots.

Overall I am not convinced on spell haste. I don't have any math to back up my word but my gut reaction to haste at the gear level you are at is that it isn't worth it.

As for pants I wouldn't take either of these. I'd personally get Spellstrike Pants made (yes it is expensive but it leaves you to spend you badges on the harder pieces like wrists/chest). Spellstrike will last you until T5 pants.

Personally the way I would go about gear right now is:
Head: Spellstrike to T5 (or engineering helm)
Chest: Badge Chest until T5
Wrist: Badge Wrists until T6 stuff
Gloves: T4 until T5 (until T6 if you are lucky enough to grab a chest)
Waist: Anything until T5 content (think i had some leather moonkin drop from kara)
Pants: Spellstrike/T4 until T5
Boots: Ruby Slippers till T5 loot (i forget what i was wearing before Ruby Slippers, if there is badge gear for this slot pick it up)

Overall Gearwise:
T5 bonus > hit (until hit capped) > damage > crit or spirit or mp5 or int > everything else



Cheers

I check my haste rating by counting it myself or you can have your gear in the spreadsheet and see it there :P But anyway I think haste is really awesome. Grasp of the moonkin is the best thing at the badge vendor. The other parts are sidegrades from Windhawk armor imo. Get Moon-walkers for the cool name :P

About pants, I read in this thread maybe there are some in ZA now? Also realize that as a moonkin you need equal rights to cloth drops as your spriest and mage buddies, otherwise you will not get the gear you need. There is barely any leather +dmg gear in this game besides the tier pieces.

Moonwalkers (60 badges) instead of Ruby Slippers (they're basically the same but better, just without hearthstone).
For gloves, you can also go for the studious grasp instead of moonkin grasp (cloth 60 badges gloves), the small amount of haste from the leather gloves alone won't be much help. This naturally depends on where you get your +hit, the Attumen gloves are better if you need that bonus.

There are new leather pants in ZA now, from the first chest of the timed event. Depends on where you stand, if you're not doing ZA yet I'd get the S3 pants.

The problem with haste is that it only increases DPS without increasing DPM(M is for mana). So unless you're able to sustain whatever the best rotation is for the whole duration of the fight with the haste, it's really not going to be a great stat to pick. In order to use a haste kit you'd need a very solid shadow priest for sure. I picked up the Studious Wraps instead because they're overall a safer upgrade option.

However, if they change NG and haste to reduce the GCD, we might have to take a very very close look at spell haste once again. This is but a dream though.

S3 pants vs the ZA chest reward pants is kind of a wash. If you obey the socket bonuses, you get like 4 damage, 12 crit, 5 int for 7 mp5. For fights where you are borderline running out of mana, they're about equal. But for bosses, I'd suggest spellstrike regardless. As much as I hated wearing cloth, they're really too good.

I'm in a Illidan farming guild, two of our shadow priests which have raided with us since Gruul's Lair have easily exceeded 1k dps a while back. The first time being a Gruul raid back when we were still in the middle of ssc, I remember distinctly the first time I saw the shadow priest break 1k dps.
They may have some horrible scaling issues since then and many fights where they can't go all out (pushback/threat/can't swd) but our experienced shadowpriests have no problem breaking 1k dps on most fights and can easily push 1.2k+ on more dps friendly fights.

Vauk:
As you say, there are some fights which are bad for melee - but there are also fights which are bad for casters (or just plain good for melee/physical dps). If you were willing to spec differently for every single fight than maybe this would matter but we are looking at the bigger picture.

hey,

slightly of current tangent, but i am interested to know the damage scaling of treants to spell dmg.
my apologies if this has been covered previously. however this info will complete my spreadsheet.

Regards