Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 31

Saraya · 11/14/07, 10:42 PM

Khalanis, out of curiousity, what is your ping? I was actually theorizing that people with somewhat high latency could use it to their advantage:

/cast Moonfire
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen moon]Idol of the Unseen Moon

The client would send the moonfire request off to the server, the idol would get swapped, and THEN the server would reply with the OK to cast moonfire, and then you'd cast the moonfire with idol in place!

If your ping is somewhat low, perhaps that would explain the < 50% proc rate. I sit with 500 ping, so success would practically be assured if this really does work out this way. This would mean people with high latency actually have an advantage?! This is madness!

I'll be picking up the idol some time next week because I really want those bracers first, but getting input from people with different latencies would definitely be interesting.

Khalanis · 11/15/07, 4:39 AM

My ping usually shows between 170 and 250, I usually am able to pre-cast @ 0.5s remaining. I feel confidant about the swaps occuring properly(although a 50% proc rate ontop of that is hard to tell really), and that it is just that a 50% proc may not always end up being 50% in practice.
One thing to note, and especially frustrating with the idol swap macros, is that if you press it too early(only when a swap occurs that is, not during a chain cast) you will swap the idol and get an error message for the attempted spell, thus getting a GCD and finish your current spell without starting the new one then have to sit there waiting to cast again. But overall, if you just play it safe during the moonfire==>Starfire transitions the benefits of this trinket are pretty good for having no real drawbacks.

On a side note, I feel as though my ego would not be pleased with me if I didn't appologize for my poor showing in those WWSes, as I'm still waiting to replace my 12agi 3% crit dmg gem, and rarely pot up anymore.

Benita · 11/15/07, 5:56 AM

Went outside shattrah, Moonfired 3 mobs down with that macro in feral gear, not 1 proc, 150ms. Either highly unlikely or simply working as intended or it has something to do with precasting. Calianes solution seems to be the best here really. MF+SF idol equip, SF SF SF SF+MF idol equip. That is what the game is allowing, the other one seems like a technical fluke.

Khalanis · 11/15/07, 9:10 AM

Just went outside shatt after reading your post to do some more testing, with a ping of 80-90ms
Using this macro I found it still worked on a regular basis. I rooted the mob, switched to a different idol, waited for the GCD to be more than finished(from the idol switch), then hit the macro. Did this a few times and found it still worked as it had during my raiding experiences.

#showtooltip Moonfire
/cast Moonfire
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon

124 casts spam casting with the trinket equipped yielded 43% proc
172 casts while swapping yielded 37% proc

During these tests I also found out that 2 piece t4 will only give you 25 mana for rank1 moonfire.

Caliane · 11/15/07, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

In the spreadsheet, yeah. I keep dreaming of a Monte Carlo simulation as the back-end of a web-site. The sort of response the sheet has gotten has definately encouraged me to think more and more about it. No promises, but the daydream has started to come along with practical considerations like how much $$ per month for a web server that would let me run an application of that nature...

Haste plays VERY nicely with static formulas. Especially with latency & all that jazz. It also seems to get better & better as you're able to stack more & more. (Hence why the semi-max-DPS gearset I tried to upload the spreadsheet with is showing off lots of it.)

Yeah. These two go hand in hand with my most recent considerations on spell haste.

Haste vs crit and procs.
This is something very interesting and overlooked by the spreadsheet when showing dps values.
Icon of the silver cresent- 175 damage for 20 seconds
Idol of the unseen moon- 140 for 10s
Hex shunken head- 211 for 20 seconds.

Every spell cast under the effects of temporary buffs has a chance to crit as normal, and so crit scales with procs of this nature.
A crit may or may not occur during the buff duration, but the chance is there, and thus on average, the crit will effect that buff.
Haste however, makes you cast faster, and does NOT scale with short term buffs lke this unless it DOES give you enough haste to cast a full additional spell in this time frame.
There is no chance. It is pure breakpoint. (except nat grace haste or quagmirrians...)
20s-6 3s casts. 2 nat grace procs will get you 7 casts. It would take something like 523 spell haste to give the 1 second over the 20s and let you get that 7th cast in.
Considerign the large number of procs nowadays, this is a very important thing to consider crit vs haste.

Dragon · 11/15/07, 6:23 PM

#showtooltip Moonfire
/cast Moonfire
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon

I've tested that macro above on PTR when it was still up and in Gruul's lair last night and the Idol seems to proc.
Actually last night the proc rate was 76% (35 of 46) ... I guess I was lucky because that's higher than what WoWHead lists it at (50%)

Saraya · 11/16/07, 12:54 AM

I did some math and deteremined the DPS increase per badge was better for the Idol compared to the bracers, so I went ahead and got the Idol. First off: 53/100 procs. And the macro swap does indeed work. HOWEVER, you get stuck with the pre 2.3 GCD delay, so depending on your ping it might be an issue.

Example: Me, 500 ms ping.

Pre 2.3:
t=0.0 Hit moonfire key
t=0.5 Moonfire casts, GCD starts
t=2.0 GCD ends

2.3:
t=0.0 Hit moonfire key, GCD starts
t=0.5 Moonfire casts
t=1.5 GCD ends

With the macro above:
t=0.0 Hit moonfire macro, GCD starts
t=0.5 Moonfire casts with chance to proc, Idol gets swapped in, GCD restarts
t=2.0 GCD ends

So its a 0.5 second loss. For MF SFx4 rotation, that's roughly a 3.7% loss in DPS, so even though this macro works, its not worth it(for me). So Cal's method is still the best: MF, SF+SFIdol, SF, SF, SF+MFIdol. If you have less than around 120 ping, the macro(assuming it works, maybe it's a Europrean server thing?) should actually be better than the SF+MFIdol method.

For PVP, the idol is very nice indeed though.

galzohar · 11/16/07, 1:11 AM

Pre 2.3:
t=0.0 Hit moonfire key
t=0.5 Moonfire casts, GCD starts
t=2.0 GCD ends

This isn't true. Pre-2.3 with instant casts is the same as 2.3 as far as I've noticed (which is at least as far as what you're posting).
anyway you can't swap a libram after an instant cast and have it affect the instant afaik... The /equip happens after the /cast thus not affecting the /cast. If you equip before the /cast you'll get a "weapon swap in combat" 1.5s GCD and have to wait before being able to do the instant cast. Someone seems to have test results that show otherwise, so I'll take this comment back although it completely doesn't make sense that it works like that and be aware that it may get fixed.

If you want to get the proc you should cast the last starfire before the moonfire with the moonfire libram so when you cast moonfire the libram is up, then either swap back the the starfire libram during (or right after you start) the starfire cast or right after the moonfire cast (result will be the same). You lose the starfire idol on 1 starfire per each moonfire but gain chance to proc the moonfire idol, which should overall be worth it if I'm not missing something.

Dioneirra · 11/16/07, 2:47 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Anyway you can't swap a libram after an instant cast and have it affect the instant afaik... The /equip happens after the /cast thus not affecting the /cast. If you equip before the /cast you'll get a "weapon swap in combat" 1.5s GCD and have to wait before being able to do the instant cast.

If you want to get the proc you should cast the last starfire before the moonfire with the moonfire libram so when you cast moonfire the libram is up, then either swap back the the starfire libram during (or right after you start) the starfire cast or right after the moonfire cast (result will be the same). You lose the starfire idol on 1 starfire per each moonfire but gain chance to proc the moonfire idol, which should overall be worth it if I'm not missing something.

Sorry, but this is not true. Right now equipping the idol within the moonfire macro will result in the proc being available, even though Moonfire is an instant cast. I tested this with various pings available to me (400ms, 150ms, 50ms) and the proc percentage is usually around 50% for a given numer of tries. There also seems to be no loose due to a running GCD as mentioned before. Example from yesterdays raid:

22:32'14.043 Dioneirra's Starfire crits Hydross the Unstable for 5592 Arcane damage
22:32'14.495 Dioneirra's Moonfire crits Hydross the Unstable for 1362 Arcane damage
22:32'15.046 Dioneirra gains Lunar Grace
22:32'17.359 Dioneirra's Moonfire dots Hydross the Unstable for 434 Arcane damage
22:32'19.152 Dioneirra's Starfire hits Hydross the Unstable for 3005 Arcane damage

This is while using macro-casts, which equip the suitable idol (with noequipped check) during each cast (i.e. Starfire equips the Starfire idol, Moonfire equips the Moonfire idol). I checked the time difference between the Starfire Hit and the Moonfire Hit with Pre 2.3 Logs, and it didn't change. My ping during this raid was about 200ms. As you can see, the time between the last Starfire Hit and the next one, is close to 1.5s (GCD from Moonfire) + 3s (Starfire with Nature's Grace) and my Ping, so there seems to be no additional loose to a later activation of a GCD.

Saraya · 11/16/07, 5:40 AM

I understand where you're coming from galzohar, but all of us have actually been testing this in game, and it does work. Perhaps its a bug(which would kind of make this idol pretty bad), but I assure you that the macro above with the /cast followed by /equip does indeed work. Also, perhaps I'm mistaken about pre-2.3 GCDs, but I remember if I used moonfire, I'd have to wait around ping+1.5 seconds before I could cast another spell because if I tried it before that, it'd complain about the spell not being ready yet. Not that we can test it anymore so I'll just assume I was playing terribly.

Originally Posted by Dioneirra

22:32'14.043 Dioneirra's Starfire crits Hydross the Unstable for 5592 Arcane damage
22:32'14.495 Dioneirra's Moonfire crits Hydross the Unstable for 1362 Arcane damage
22:32'15.046 Dioneirra gains Lunar Grace
22:32'17.359 Dioneirra's Moonfire dots Hydross the Unstable for 434 Arcane damage
22:32'19.152 Dioneirra's Starfire hits Hydross the Unstable for 3005 Arcane damage

This is while using macro-casts, which equip the suitable idol (with noequipped check) during each cast (i.e. Starfire equips the Starfire idol, Moonfire equips the Moonfire idol). I checked the time difference between the Starfire Hit and the Moonfire Hit with Pre 2.3 Logs, and it didn't change. My ping during this raid was about 200ms. As you can see, the time between the last Starfire Hit and the next one, is close to 1.5s (GCD from Moonfire) + 3s (Starfire with Nature's Grace) and my Ping, so there seems to be no additional loose to a later activation of a GCD.

T=0.000 Moonfire lands
T=0.551 Gain the proc
T=2.864 Moonfire dot
T=4.657 Starfire lands

You got a crit with Moonfire, so the Starfire should have landed at around T=4, not 4.5... Base casting time for Starfire is 3.5 seconds, but is talented to 3 seconds, and another 0.5 from Nature's Grace. I was definitely seeing my GCD getting refreshed, but perhaps it's a graphical error with quartz and bongos. I'll do some further testing, but I'm just so paranoid of getting locked out of a full GCD. Guess I'll hope someone isn't testing on Dr. Boom tonight.

Actually, is there any way to make a macro where it will only continue on with the rest of the macro if everything before it succeeded?

So like
#Showtooltip Moonfire
/cast Moonfire
???
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon]Idol of the Unseen Moon

so that if you spam this macro, the idol only gets equipped when moonfire actually goes through? That'd really help with the GCD lockdown problem.

Dioneirra · 11/16/07, 6:55 AM

Ah, my bad with using 3s instead of 2.5, speak about tunnel vision. But, and thats important, the times are nearly identical with Pre 2.3, so it can't be due to a new GCD behaviour for equiping idols. Here, an example from a week ago, the same fight, but not using idolswapping macros (made no sense back then):

21:15'49.223 Dioneirra's Moonfire crits Hydross the Unstable for 1523 Arcane damage
21:15'52.107 Dioneirra's Moonfire dots Hydross the Unstable for 480 Arcane damage
21:15'53.730 Dioneirra's Starfire crits Hydross the Unstable for 5910 Arcane damage

Pre 2.3

T=0,000 Moonfire lands
T=2,884 Moonfire Dot
T=4,507 Starfire lands

After 2.3

T=0.000 Moonfire lands
T=0.551 Gain the proc
T=2.864 Moonfire dot
T=4.657 Starfire lands

The small increase after 2.3 is to low for a GCD through idol swapping, i blame it to the massive FPS loss (and therefor a worse reaction in activating spell rotations) i experience since 2.3.

Saraya · 11/16/07, 10:16 AM

So I a bit more testing, and my description above of the Idol resetting the GCD even though it is proccing is accurate for me, at least. Dio, you're saying that your pre and post 2.3 cast timings are the same... which matches up with what I was saying earlier:

Originally Posted by Saraya

Example: Me, 500 ms ping.

Pre 2.3:
t=0.0 Hit moonfire key
t=0.5 Moonfire casts, GCD starts
t=2.0 GCD ends

2.3:
With the macro above:
t=0.0 Hit moonfire macro, GCD starts
t=0.5 Moonfire casts with chance to proc, Idol gets swapped in, GCD restarts
t=2.0 GCD ends

So we can have the same cast timing with pre 2.3 changes and gain the bonus of the Idol, OR we can take advantage of the change and start casting spells earlier than normal. And unless your ping is below 120, I think the best usage of the idol will be to swap it in the last cast of Starfire, so that you sacrifice the starfire idol use for 1 starfire in order for a chance at the proc, without losing time.

In other words, you should be able to do this now:
T=0.000 Moonfire lands (+crit)
T=2.864 Moonfire dot
T=4.123 Starfire lands

If you forgo swapping the Moonfire idol in with moonfire, you should be able to be landing spells as if you had little to no latency... if that makes any sense.

galzohar · 11/16/07, 10:30 AM

I understand where you're coming from galzohar, but all of us have actually been testing this in game, and it does work. Perhaps its a bug(which would kind of make this idol pretty bad), but I assure you that the macro above with the /cast followed by /equip does indeed work. Also, perhaps I'm mistaken about pre-2.3 GCDs, but I remember if I used moonfire, I'd have to wait around ping+1.5 seconds before I could cast another spell because if I tried it before that, it'd complain about the spell not being ready yet. Not that we can test it anymore so I'll just assume I was playing terribly.

Post edited according to your tests.

As for the "ability not ready" that happens (or at least happened in 2.2 but at least some things still cause it in 2.3) is that due to ping variance, you could send instnat casts in 1.5s intervals to the server (since the GCD you see is client-side) but they wouldn't actually get to the server in 1.5s intervals (again due to ping variance), so when the ping changed enough between instant casts to make the 2nd cast arrive less than 1.5s after the first, the server would still be on a GCD and send you an "ability not ready" error. Still need to test more to see how this was/wasn't changed in 2.3.
The sure thing is that at least if you're casting a single spell, your GCD on the client will start when you hit the spell, not when the server tells you you hit the spell. The reason for /stopcasting was that the castbar would only start when the server says "ok", GCD had nothing to do with it. Again still need testing if they fixed the GCD for instants and ping variance issue in 2.3 and how well.

Saraya · 11/16/07, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

The sure thing is that at least if you're casting a single spell, your GCD on the client will start when you hit the spell, not when the server tells you you hit the spell. The reason for /stopcasting was that the castbar would only start when the server says "ok", GCD had nothing to do with it. Again still need testing if they fixed the GCD for instants and ping variance issue in 2.3 and how well.

Ok, I guess I see what you're talking about... it's just my experience that I was getting penalized due to lag for instant cast spells. For spells with cast time, I could adjust to the lag with /stopcasting, but spells that were instant would take about 2 seconds for me. I just realized that I didn't have stopcasting on my instant casts, so it was probably something I could have taken care of. Oops.

In 2.3, yes, the GCD does start when you hit the spell, so I think the issue with my macro is that the spell cast and idol swap do not happen one after another... they are separated by about 500 ms... I'm seeing Quartz start ticking, then 1/3 of the way through it'll reset, and at that point I may or may not be getting the lunar grace proc from the idol.

Dr.Boom Tests:
Alternating 2 Macros: cast mf+equip mf idol, and cast sf+equip idols
Average time between moonfire landing and starfire landing:
With NG: 4.690
without: 5.351

Alternating between MF and SF
Average time between moonfire landing and starfire landing:
with NG: 4.203
without: 4.750

The theoretical times of course are
1.5+2.5=4.000 and
1.5+3.0=4.500.
Using just normal spells, even with 500 ping I get a reasonably close value to the ideal value. Using the macro with MF+equip MF, I lose ~500-600 ms, which is what my ping floats around. This is very visually explained with the Quartz GCD ticker.

If you guys run this test, keep in mind that your client sends the action requests on the "negative edge", that is when you let go of the button. If you are timing it such that you are pressing the button when you want it to execute, you'll lose ~100-200ms. It also seems like the server does give some leeway to casting now... I got a very large number of simultaneous SF and MF hits, which was especially fun if both of them crit, Lunar Grace proc, Nature's Grace proc, and Power Infusion proc.

Well, in the end, the "proper" way to use the macro still wins out for those of us with lag. As a side note, for me the proc shows up on average .581 seconds after Moonfire lands. This may explain why the macro works - the check comes after the spell is cast. This differs from all the other procs I have - Nature's grace and power infusion both occur exactly the moment the spell is cast.

Benita · 11/16/07, 12:07 PM

Maybe theres something wrong with my client, but i went out again to test this and it again didnt work. My server is located in the EU btw.

The macro i used:

#showtooltip Moonfire
/cast Moonfire(Rank 1)
/equip [noequipped:Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon

I manually equipped the Idol of Terror after each cast and used the Macro again. I had 300ms lag with some spikes.
0 procs while killing a timber worg outside of shattrah with Moonfire Rank 1 in feral gear. Maybe its the specc, havent been moonkin yet since 2.3 was patched, but i seriously can only state that it does not work for me. It is the intended behaviour as far as i know.
I also tested the macro without swapping, the Idol behaved normally there and procced about the mentioned 30-50%.

Edit: What does work however is to cast a Starfire and while that Starfire is casting to hammer the MF macro button already. The equip gcd is covered by the Starfire cast time and the Moonfire Idol equipped when you cast the Moonfire. This would also mean you can cut out the Starfire+MF Idol equip button of the sequence.
Meaning MF Idol equipped on default, start with MF, Starfire+Starfire idol equip check, 2 more SF, 1 more SF and while that one is casting, a fast MF+MF idol equip check and after the cast finished the MF button again. Basically its trading one more button click for another hotkey. I hope people actually can get what im trying to say here.